Middle Imperial Roman Field Army 2800 pt List UPDATED 20/10 FOR Scrutiny

[Atheling]

Hi,

I'm going to be entering a Warhammer Ancient Battles V.2 Classical Tournament sometime next year and wanted to know if any of you guys out there still playing WAB thought of this list? (Boy do I miss the WAB Forum at this point in time!)

This is the second version of my list and I think I have struck a much better balance by dropping the Elite Legionaries and adding 11 Equites Alares- Upgraded to Guards (with a Legate to accompany them)

Also, I've beefed up the Palmyran Horse Archers to 9 and added a few Archers to each Archer Unit.
I would be very interested in any critique of the list- as I mentioned last time, it is a very long time since I played WAB V.2 and could easily be missing something.

I really do need help in balancing the list out

CHARACTERS: 163

ARMY GENERAL-
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Throwing spear/Horse
Special Rules- Army General


ARMY STANDARD BEARER- 117
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Horse
Special Rules- Army Standard Bearer

LEGATE-
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Horse 95 (Goes in with Equites Alares- Upgraded to Guards)

INFANTRY-
21 Seasoned Legionaries- Centurion (+1 Attack/+1 Ld/)/Standard/Musician 335
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Large Shield/Heavy Throwing Spear
21 Seasoned Legionaries- Centuri0n (+1 Attack/+1/+1 Ld/)/Standard/Musician 335
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Large Shield/Heavy Throwing Spear
21 Seasoned Legionaries- Centurion/ (+1 Attack/+1LD) Ld/)Standard/Musician 335
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Large Shield/Heavy Throwing Spear
12 Archers 120
Bow
Special Rules- Light Infantry
12 Archers 120
Bow
Special Rules- Light Infantry

CAVALRY
11 Equites Alares- Upgraded to Guards (WS4/BS4/+4pts) 372
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Javelins/Throwing spear
Special Rules- Light Cavalry/Drilled/(Guards)

ARTILLERY-
Heavy bolt Thrower- 52
4 Crew (1 extra)
Heavy bolt Thrower-
4 Crew (1 extra)
52

ALLIES: PALMYRAN-
12 Cataphracts- 486
Hand Weapon/Cataphract Armour/Kontos/Barding
Special Rules- Cataphracts (actually Shock Cavalry because of Barding)

9 Horse Palyran Archers- 216
Hand Weapon/Composite Bow
Special Rules- Light Cavalry/Parthian Shot/Feigned Flight

TOTAL- 2798 PTS

[Tim Haslam]

Very cool!

My 2p worth,
Heavy bolt throwers may be too much considering most players will be deploying in only 3 ranks?
I’ve gone for 3 light Scorpios in my army.
Plus I’ve deployed them as a battery with a junior officer in command.
This in theory will deter enemy light troops from taking them on?

Legionaries may be worth trying in 18’s rather than 21?

At the event we may expect a few elephants, so maybe, just to contradict what I’ve just said, the heavy artillery may be better? 

I’m sure it’ll be fine just as you have it.
I have taken the option, in my army, to upgrade a unit of auxiliary archers to elite with a Ld8.
I can deploy these in skirmish, but with high leadership should (in theory) hang around a bit longer.

[Atheling]

Very cool!

My 2p worth,
Heavy bolt throwers may be too much considering most players will be deploying in only 3 ranks?
I’ve gone for 3 light Scorpios in my army.
Plus I’ve deployed them as a battery with a junior officer in command.
This in theory will deter enemy light troops from taking them on?

Legionaries may be worth trying in 18’s rather than 21?

At the event we may expect a few elephants, so maybe, just to contradict what I’ve just said, the heavy artillery may be better? 

I’m sure it’ll be fine just as you have it.
I have taken the option, in my army, to upgrade a unit of auxiliary archers to elite with a Ld8.
I can deploy these in skirmish, but with high leadership should (in theory) hang around a bit longer.

Cheers Tim. Thanks buddy.

I'm stuck between more Legionaries or sticking with the list that I have. I'm unlikely (unless Covid magically disappears this Autumn and Winter!) to get very many practice games in so it's all guesswork really. to give you some idea of how long it's been since I played WAB V.2; I played in one WAB V.2 event and that was either Cold Steel or Hot Lead at Gripping Beast HQ.

I have to say, I'm not enjoying doing the math for the lists 

Army Builder, for all it's faults could be corrected later on after you had put the meat of the army list together 

[steve29651]

Nice List and sound advice from Tim, what book did you base your list on, I cannot find a list for the Middle Imperial Romans in the books I have?
I have a load of A & A Middle Imperials just waiting to be done.

Steve M

[Tim Haslam]

Hi Steve,
It’s Armies of Antiquity version 2.
Available off the WAB 2 Facebook page.

100+ armies in there.

[bluewillow]

Good looking list, imo drop one of the legionary and add a unit of auxiliary with long spears to counter elephants.

Great set of rules and loved them while they were still in use locally

Cheers
Matt

[Atheling]

Nice List and sound advice from Tim, what book did you base your list on, I cannot find a list for the Middle Imperial Romans in the books I have?
I have a load of A & A Middle Imperials just waiting to be done.

Steve M

Yeah, as Tim pointed out it''s in AoA V.2 Steve.

I have to admit, I haven't played much WAB V.2 and it's a little difficult to write out a list when you cannot remember how to play properly 

I'm trying and determined to go Middle Imperial Romans- The A&A range are such beautiful models 

Heavy bolt throwers may be too much considering most players will be deploying in only 3 ranks?
At the event we may expect a few elephants, so maybe, just to contradict what I’ve just said, the heavy artillery may be better? 

Yeah, the idea is to take them to try to shoot the crap out of any elephants that may come my way. Hopefully to send them cascading back into the opposition's army!

I’ve gone for 3 light Scorpios in my army.
Plus I’ve deployed them as a battery with a junior officer in command.
This in theory will deter enemy light troops from taking them on?

I hadn't even thought of trying to use a battery.  Paying for an officer might be expensive as we're looking at 84 points which could be a small unit of Light Troops positioned to defend the Battery and/or perform other battlefield roles if not needed in their primary role.

Legionaries may be worth trying in 18’s rather than 21?

Not a bad idea. Maybe two units of 18 Seasoned Legionaries and one unit of 18 Elite (Drilled, Veteran, Stubborn?)? That way the Elite Unit could manoeuvre to defend a flank if there is pressure there. Stubborn would hopefully add to help in that matter.

I am a bit nervous about units of 18 as they're only six wide and might not do too well against the inevitable Phalanges

I’m sure it’ll be fine just as you have it.
I have taken the option, in my army, to upgrade a unit of auxiliary archers to elite with a Ld8.
I can deploy these in skirmish, but with high leadership should (in theory) hang around a bit longer.

I'm probably going to order the army as is, speed paint the thing, and hopefully I might be able to get one or two practice games in.

Also, the army is going to act as a focus- if Covid rates are too high for me to make the event, then so be it, I'll have to swallow that pill if it happens. but, one the plus side, I will always have a nice Classical Army for WAB!

[Atheling]

Warhammer Ancient Battles V.2 Middle Imperial Romans 1800pts- Imperial Field Army-
List 4

CHARACTERS- Up to 20% (Max of 560pts)                   (375)
CAVALRY- Up to 50% (Max of 1400pts)                     (514)
INFANTRY- At Least 33% (At Least 924 pts)                  (1759)
ARTILLERY- One Model Every 800 points                  (156)
ALLIES- Up to 25%                     (0)

CHARACTERS:                                                                                             163
ARMY GENERAL-
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Throwing spear/Horse
Special Rules- Army General

ARMY STANDARD BEARER-                                                                                      117
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Horse
Special Rules- Army Standard Bearer

LEGATE-   
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Horse                                                                                    95                                                     
(Goes in with Equites Alares- Upgraded to Guards)            

INFANTRY-                                    
21 Seasoned Legionaries- Centurian (+1 Attack/+1 Ld/)/Standard/Musician                                                    335
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Large Shield/Heavy Throwing Spear      

18 Seasoned Legionaries- Centurian (+1 Attack/+1 Ld/)/Standard/Musician                                                    290
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Large Shield/Heavy Throwing Spear         

18 Seasoned Legionaries- Centurian/ (+1 Attack/+1 Ld/)Standard/Musician                                                    290
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Large Shield/Heavy Throwing Spear   

18 Elite Legionaries-  Centurian/ (+1 Attack/+1 Ld/)Standard/Musician                                                    434
Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Large Shield/Heavy Throwing Spear
Special Rules- Drilled/Stubborn/Veteran   

14 Archers-                                                                                               140
Bow                                                    
Special Rules- Light Infantry
                                            
14 Archers-                                                                                               140
Bow                                                    
Special Rules- Light Infantry

13 Archers   -                                                                                                    130
Bow                                                    
Special Rules- Light Infantry


ARTILLERY:   

Heavy bolt Thrower (1 extra crew)-                                                                                    52
Heavy bolt Thrower (1 extra crew)-                                                                                    52
Heavy bolt Thrower (1 extra crew)-                                                                                    52

CAVALRY-
11 Equites Alares- Upgraded to Guards (WS4/BS4/+4pts) L/S/M                                                       356                                                     Hand Weapon/Light Armour/Shield/Javelins/Throwing spear                           
Special Rules- Light Cavalry/Drilled/(Guards)   

9 Horse Archers-                                                                                                       153
Specical Rules- light Cavalry


Total Points 2794

Basic premises of the army:

Legionaries:
I have taken Tim's advice and knocked down the size of most of the Legionary units to 18. The unit 21 strong od Seasoned Legionaries will stand on one flank with the hope that the extra numbers will help them hold against any attackers. The two units of 18 strong Seasoned Legionaries will hold the centre.
The Elite, being drilled, Stubborn and Veteran ought to be able to handle the flank without the Cavalry by manoeuvring (Drilled and Stubborn (as a lat resort!)

Archers:
I've beefed up the numbers of Archers to 14, 14 and 13 respectively) so they may act as a skirmish screen or be placed to shower important enemy formations with arrows. That combined with the Torsion Engines/Bolt Throwers ought to be enough shooting for an infantry heavy army.

Cavalry:
The Legate will be positioned to lead the Equites Alares- Upgraded to Guards who are Drilled - with infantry being unable to March Block Cavalry in WAB V.2 this makes them very manoeuvrable and a real threat to the enemies flank.

The crappy Horse Archers will act as a disposable screen for the Equites Alares (Guards)

Characters:
The Army General and Standard Bearer will do their usual thing and float about behind the army adding leadership where needed.

I would very much like to hear what you guys think again

Am I missing any "tricks" here?

I think I may be 4 points over so I would just drop an Archer from on the the Archer units

[Johnp4000]

Hi Atheling,

Good to see WAB still being played, especially as this is one of my favourite armies. With respect to artillery, I am not sure I would use 3 Bolt Throwers, although generally their appearance cause the enemy more worry than their actual effect. I thought in respect to elephants, it doesn't matter whether the bolt throwers are light or heavy as I thought if you get a hit, there is no saving throw you just roll for the amount of wounds 1-3.
Although it wasn't optimum, I still found units of 24 Legionaries had better staying power, if you got struck in combat. I tended to use seasoned and raw troops .Although our battles were generally fought at 2.5K which allowed far more options.

[Atheling]

Hi Atheling,

Good to see WAB still being played, especially as this is one of my favourite armies. With respect to artillery, I am not sure I would use 3 Bolt Throwers, although generally their appearance cause the enemy more worry than their actual effect. I thought in respect to elephants, it doesn't matter whether the bolt throwers are light or heavy as I thought if you get a hit, there is no saving throw you just roll for the amount of wounds 1-3.
Although it wasn't optimum, I still found units of 24 Legionaries had better staying power, if you got struck in combat. I tended to use seasoned and raw troops .Although our battles were generally fought at 2.5K which allowed far more options.

Thanks for you input John.

2800pts is the approximate equivalent to 2000pts in old WAB money.

There is no option for Raw Legionaries in the AoA V.2 Middle Imperial Roman list thus I'm stuck with Seasoned and Elite. I think one unit of Elite to protect a flank is a good idea. The two other 18 man units of Seasoned Legionaries can hold the middle with the 21 man unit of Seasoned Legionaries on one flank (my vain hope being that the extra three miniatures can help do this!  ).

With regard to the Elite Legionaries, being Drilled, they have the maneuverability to cope quickly with aligning to any flank attacks and could even be used offensively if i get the first turn and deploy them in March Column- maybe even in support of the Equites Alares- Upgraded to Guards Cav if need be. The Equites Alares, being Drilled and with the Infantry Cannot March Block Cavalry rule are much more manoeuvrable and could be quite threatening. All Equites Alares can be Drilled so it might be worth considering taking two unit? One as guards, the other ordinary (but still Drilled)

What do you think?

I expect that this army is going to grow and grow! 

[Johnp4000]

I remembered now, sorry too many army lists in my mind, my armies used to play as either Early or Middle Romans, it was the Early list that had the raw recruits option, not sure why that was dropped for the Middle era? I know it is Hail Caesar which has the raw troops option. One of the better Roman armies I saw, always used that Elite option exactly in the way you suggested. I used to find that many players were unaware of how useful  the drilled option is to troops, both foot and mounted and were often caught out when you suddenly re-deployed.
I think it is better to have one heavy hitter cavalry that might win combats to two smaller units that might be very brittle to shooting? You don't have a lot of points to play with. I would suggest that perhaps 10-12 is a better number for the horse archers, do they have the Parthian shot ability?
Do you know what types of army you could be facing?

[Atheling]

I remembered now, sorry too many army lists in my mind, my armies used to play as either Early or Middle Romans, it was the Early list that had the raw recruits option, not sure why that was dropped for the Middle era?

I think the idea was that the Legions were well oiled machines, but still, there would always be inexperienced raw troops of all varieties.

I know it is Hail Caesar which has the raw troops option. One of the better Roman armies I saw, always used that Elite option exactly in the way you suggested. I used to find that many players were unaware of how useful  the drilled option is to troops, both foot and mounted and were often caught out when you suddenly re-deployed.

Including Drilled Legionaries was very much a flank protection thing first and for offensive action if the opportunity presents itself.  The Drilled Equites Alares (Upgraded to Guards) should pack a reasonable punch in combat as well as being able to set up flank charges. They will have to ben protected by the Horse Archers (a bit of a throw-away unit) as their saving throw is 50/50.

I think it is better to have one heavy hitter cavalry that might win combats to two smaller units that might be very brittle to shooting? You don't have a lot of points to play with. I would suggest that perhaps 10-12 is a better number for the horse archers, do they have the Parthian shot ability?
Do you know what types of army you could be facing?

The Horse Archers are Roman and are pants- they just count as Light Cavalry- as I pointed out above, they are just in the list to screen the Equites Alares until a charge can be set up.

9 Horse Archers are as good as 12 in terms of Leadership tests so I'll leave it at that.

My original list included Palmyran Cataphracts which pack a much heavier punch but are quite slow and lack the Drilled option Palmyran Horse Archers (also included in the original list) have Parthian Shot and Feigned Flight so it might be worth trying to squeeze them in and hope that I don't roll a one when it comes to testing for Mercenaries! 

[Johnp4000]

I think the Third century crisis was a series of almost constant civil wars so I would assume a lot of hasty recruited troops, have you ever seen the errata sheet for V2 which was quite a document, not sure if there were any amendments for the the Romans?
With the option I would always go for the full Monty horse archers, useful for picking off skirmishers and annoying line troops! I think you have more options than just the standard light cavalry. In v2 was Parthian shot limited to skirmishers?
Hopefully will you be doing a write up of this tournament?

[Atheling]

I think the Third century crisis was a series of almost constant civil wars so I would assume a lot of hasty recruited troops, have you ever seen the errata sheet for V2 which was quite a document, not sure if there were any amendments for the the Romans?

I've just managed to get a download and there doesn't seem to be any Errata for Middle Imperial Roman. Seems like it was a deliberate omission.

With the option I would always go for the full Monty horse archers, useful for picking off skirmishers and annoying line troops! I think you have more options than just the standard light cavalry. In v2 was Parthian shot limited to skirmishers?

That's my current feeling too. They would suffer the slings and arrows of the Allies and Mercenaries rule but would certainly be longer lasting.
I'm also thinking of going back to including the Palmyran Cataphracts, though I am concerned about their clunkiness (half move if they wheel being Cataphracts.

I have to say, I'm quite enjoying going back to producing army lists for WAB. It's kind of fun. I just wish that Army Builder, for all it's faults, had managed to get some WAB v.2 files!! It's very easy to build a list with Army Builder and any AB bugs can be ironed out when you have the meat of the list put together. It's a heck of a lot quicker then doing it in my head and using a calculator! 

Hopefully will you be doing a write up of this tournament?

If Covid levels are low enough for me to risk it (i think it's pencilled in for early Spring next year) then I will definitely be taking notes and copious numbers of pictures. For me wargaming is all about the spectacle- which is probably just as well as my tactical nous is, well, it's safe to say it's lacking