George Neville, 5th Baron Bergavenny Livery?

[HappyChappy439]

Hi everyone!

Bit of an odd question, but just wondering if anyone had any information about the livery badges and colours used by George Neville, 5th Baron Bergavenny?

Neville managed to land himself in trouble with Henry VII by illegally maintaining a retinue in the 1490s, and spent a surprising amount of time corresponding with Yorkist pretenders. It sounds like he definitely was distributing livery badges but I've not been able to track down what these badges actually were, and if he had a personal set of livery colours he used to go with them! Apparently he personally brought one of the largest contingents of soldiers with him to Henry VIII's expedition to France in 1513

I've seen reference to his grandfather Edward Neville, the 3rd (and also 1st, it's a long story) Baron Bergavenny and his livery of apparently green and white but I've not found anything for the 4th or 5th barons unfortunately!

Any help is much appreciated!

If it helps, I've been going off of information in The Last White Rose by Desmond Seward and this article: https://academic.oup.com/histres/article/94/266/675/6377832

[Stuart]

He’s an interesting chap, Wikipedia has a reasonable amount of detail

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Nevill,_5th_Baron_Bergavenny

[Stuart]

Here’s his standard from an entry in the collage of arms associated with the 1513 campaign

As for livery if he’s raising men in royal service for that campaign it’s the white coat fringed green.

Badges could be the cow or staples

[HappyChappy439]

Ah amazing! Thanks for the help Stuart!

As for livery if he’s raising men in royal service for that campaign it’s the white coat fringed green.

If it's for his personal illicit retinues would I be right in thinking based on that standard that his livery would still be white and green based on the trim of the standard there, or would it be solid red?

Thanks again!

Edit: Scratch that, I think I found the answer to my own question about the sneaky illegal retinues:
[My Lord of Bourgayne (Geo. Nevill)]. Colours — vert and argent.
Badges
— (i) a bull passant argent, pied sable,
armed, unguled, collared and chained or, the
chain fixed by two staples interlaced argent
and or ;
(2) a double staple interlaced,
one argent, the other or.
Motto — Tenir promesse vient de noblesse
[Standard — MS. I. 2j Coll. Arms].

I'm guessing the citation given for the standard is the manuscript you were able to get the standard from Stuart?

[Stuart]

I’d go red, it was a common colour anyway, deemed to be lucky too for reasons that escape me.

Green and white May confuse things with the royal livery

[HappyChappy439]

Ah, good point!

Though, judging by the description of "vert and argent" it sounds like it'd be the inverse of the royal livery in this case, which would be an odd twist!

[commissarmoody]

Ah, good point!

Though, judging by the description of "vert and argent" it sounds like it'd be the inverse of the royal livery in this case, which would be an odd twist!

So would that be a green coat with white trim?

[HappyChappy439]

So would that be a green coat with white trim?

That's my understanding at least! Where the left colour is used as the primary one, and the right is used for the fringe on the livery coats (or top/bottom on standards)

[Baron von Wreckedoften]

I’d go red, it was a common colour anyway, deemed to be lucky too for reasons that escape me.

Surely not with all those Frenchmen shooting at it?

[commissarmoody]

 

That's my understanding at least! Where the left colour is used as the primary one, and the right is used for the fringe on the livery coats (or top/bottom on standards)

That would make for a strikeing contrast on the table. Of course as Stuart said, red would most likely be used. 

[Stuart]

Found it.

Took a while but you know how it is when something gets in there and you have to find where you got it from.

Re red being a lucky colour in the Tudor period it is mentioned here, it’s a good listen while you paint 🙂;