Scythed Chariots- Real or a Western Fantasy?

[Rick]

As a metalsmith myself, i could easily attribute that to an error in the die…a lot of work wasted by the minter means keeping a die even if a bit of schmutz appeared during the process to make the coin . And a small coin with stylized lines is hardly a real source.  I think the best you can say about this one coin that itcan lead one into confirmation bias but it  isn’t a source proving the presence of scythes in Celtic chariots.  My guess is the best sources will remain literary references and the few found chariots in the archeological record. This coin is not.

That is either an incredibly well sculpted bit of schmutz or monumentally long odds that it should just happen to take that shape - there is a definite ball shape at the top which descends into a forward, then backward sweeping curve in, what one might say, is a close facsimile of a hook shape. As a metalsmith, what ARE the flippin' odds of it perfectly forming that shape, perfectly aligned over that spoke, perfectly aligned just below the wheel hub? Frankly if it was a more shapeless squiggle at random anywhere else on the image then I might buy your explanation but it is in exactly the right place and in the right alignment to be a part of the original image. Quite what, I'm not sure of, but I'm certain it isn't some random bit of schmutz. Sorry.

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

That is either an incredibly well sculpted bit of schmutz or monumentally long odds that it should just happen to take that shape - there is a definite ball shape at the top which descends into a forward, then backward sweeping curve in, what one might say, is a close facsimile of a hook shape. As a metalsmith, what ARE the flippin' odds of it perfectly forming that shape, perfectly aligned over that spoke, perfectly aligned just below the wheel hub? Frankly if it was a more shapeless squiggle at random anywhere else on the image then I might buy your explanation but it is in exactly the right place and in the right alignment to be a part of the original image. Quite what, I'm not sure of, but I'm certain it isn't some random bit of schmutz. Sorry.

If intentional, since the perspective has the second horses legs partially visible…perhaps this “hook”is a depiction the visual parts of the further wheel? Ya think?  The arc looks much the same.

Schmutz happens all the time and it might well be. Serendipity in schmutz’ appearance has saved many of my projects!

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

In 'The Cattle Raid of Cooley' Cúchulainn is described as having a chariot big enough for himself, a driver and his 8 weapons, as well as being covered with hooks, blades, points and sickles as a defensive measure. Which, I admit, gave me the idea! 

Which telling?  I haven’t seen it my collection of depictions of his chariot but I am by no means exhaustive in my collection, and oral tales written down by monks possibly a thousand years after the legendary event may have occurred are going to be subject to a lot of divergence.  I am intrigued as to when the motif might have come about—Victorian? Earlier? Earliest surviving manuscript?

[Rick]

If intentional, since the perspective has the second horses legs partially visible…perhaps this “hook”is a depiction the visual parts of the further wheel? Ya think?  The arc looks much the same.

Schmutz happens all the time and it might well be. Serendipity in schmutz’ appearance has saved many of my projects!

There are some details between the spokes, possibly the chariot side? And there definitely appears to be the bottom part of a spoke appearing below the mystery object, which would then mean that the mystery object is in front of the spoke/wheel, not behind it. I just don't know - if it is schmutz then it's the cleanest, most well-sculpted bit I've ever seen - it looks in proportion and stylistically in keeping with the rest of the image. I just don't buy the idea that it's a serendipitous bit of schmutz.
My father still has my book with the Cattle Raid of Cooley in it so I can't check - I got this online where I've been spending too much time dipping in and out of different 'scythed chariot' conversations! Yes that particular detail we may have to pin down but I think it's broadly legit.

[Rick]

There is a description of Cúchulainn's 'sickle' chariot (specifically named as such to differentiate it from a chariot with scythes on the wheel hubs) in the Táin Bó Cúailnge (cattle raid of Cooley) as being covered in sharp points, blades, sickles and hooks as offensive measures (I misread that bit I think) but not scythed wheel hubs.

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

There are some details between the spokes, possibly the chariot side? And there definitely appears to be the bottom part of a spoke appearing below the mystery object, which would then mean that the mystery object is in front of the spoke/wheel, not behind it. I just don't know - if it is schmutz then it's the cleanest, most well-sculpted bit I've ever seen - it looks in proportion and stylistically in keeping with the rest of the image. I just don't buy the idea that it's a serendipitous bit of schmutz.
My father still has my book with the Cattle Raid of Cooley in it so I can't check - I got this online where I've been spending too much time dipping in and out of different 'scythed chariot' conversations! Yes that particular detail we may have to pin down but I think it's broadly legit.

Schmutz it may well be.  I went and I’d a quick internet search of your denarius and found lots of pics of other denarii from the same mint and others from the same time frame. I didn’t find any with any depiction of some sort of hook—just simple wheels and very clearly rendered.  Why this one?

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

There is a description of Cúchulainn's 'sickle' chariot (specifically named as such to differentiate it from a chariot with scythes on the wheel hubs) in the Táin Bó Cúailnge (cattle raid of Cooley) as being covered in sharp points, blades, sickles and hooks as offensive measures (I misread that bit I think) but not scythed wheel hubs.

Again, which retelling or translation?  Literary license, can and did occur more often then not, so the time period of the source might be important.

[Rick]

Schmutz it may well be.  I went and I’d a quick internet search of your denarius and found lots of pics of other denarii from the same mint and others from the same time frame. I didn’t find any with any depiction of some sort of hook—just simple wheels and very clearly rendered.  Why this one?

"Why this one." The same question I was asking when someone else raised the subject of the coin. Why are there no other coins, illustrations, carvings or anything else. I have no answers. I have seen the same sort of coins that you mention - a lot of 4 horse (quadrigae?) chariots, several 2 horse chariots, often depicting a gallic figure, but not one other coin with something on the wheel. I know it isn't a classic scythed chariot, I don't thi k it's schmutz but beyond that I have nothing.