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Author Topic: Curt's Great Italian Wars Project (Updated Feb 7/18: 'Renaissance Duet')  (Read 17022 times)

Offline Curt

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Re: Curt's Great Italian Wars Project (Updated Feb 7/18: 'Renaissance Duet')
« Reply #150 on: February 11, 2018, 07:28:44 AM »
Thanks for the kinds comments folks, it's very much appreciated.

@puster: Thank you for your information on the banners - that's interesting to know. If you had read the post that the images were attached to you would have discovered that the flags come from either 'Pete's Flags' or 'Flags of War'. I can't recall which vendor produced that flag, but if you have a problem with the accuracy of this product I suggest taking it up with whichever one of them created it (it'll be on one of their websites). Otherwise, this heraldic sin does not bother me or my gaming group's sensibilities, nor does it mar the enjoyment of our games. Pearls before swine I guess. :)

Offline Stuart

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    • Army Royal
Re: Curt's Great Italian Wars Project (Updated Feb 7/18: 'Renaissance Duet')
« Reply #151 on: February 11, 2018, 12:11:03 PM »
The Imperial Eagle and Pillars feature on Charles Vís Coat of Arms;

Offline Stuart

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Re: Curt's Great Italian Wars Project (Updated Feb 7/18: 'Renaissance Duet')
« Reply #152 on: February 11, 2018, 12:13:20 PM »
As mentioned in the Osprey Landsknechts book, I took this with a pinch of salt so looked for original woodcuts as above

Offline puster

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Re: Curt's Great Italian Wars Project (Updated Feb 7/18: 'Renaissance Duet')
« Reply #153 on: February 11, 2018, 03:14:25 PM »
Its true that Charles - as both Kind of Spain and Emperor - had both symbols in his personal arms. There is even a small Spanish town that uses these, in reference to Charles personal arms, but that has no bearing on their usage by 16th century units.

In my research I never found a depiction of pillars (or any other Spanish emblem) on any Landsknechts flag, nor can I imagine that any Spanish unit would ever bear the Imperial eagle. Both were allied by their allegiance to Charles, but apart from that there was a lot of ongoing rivalry with several bloody incidents.

I would be (really) glad on any information to the contrary (regarding arms and emblems), though.


Alas, that flag even made it into the plastic set of Warlord Games. Which, on the other side, kind of fits...
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 03:16:42 PM by puster »

Offline Stuart

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Re: Curt's Great Italian Wars Project (Updated Feb 7/18: 'Renaissance Duet')
« Reply #154 on: February 11, 2018, 03:37:46 PM »
Thatís the thing with Osprey books, theyíre a great resource but they can sometimes set off a trend.

One wonders whether the source for the banner in there is conjectural from woodcuts such as those above or if there are also other (overlooked or not mentioned) sources showing such a banner in a unit. It doesnít however automatically mean that it did not feature and thereís some reason to it so who knows ?

The other habit of tearing banners st the end of a campaign hasnít helped us either ! Why did they do that ?


Offline Metternich

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Re: Curt's Great Italian Wars Project (Updated Feb 7/18: 'Renaissance Duet')
« Reply #155 on: February 11, 2018, 04:35:53 PM »
And this, purporting to be from a set of 1932 postcards, purports to depict a personal standard of Charles V :

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/1932-Historic-Flag-Card-Standard-of-Charles-V-Holy-Roman-Emperor-/352253866852?hash=item5203f77364

Offline pete17

  • Bookworm
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Re: Curt's Great Italian Wars Project (Updated Feb 7/18: 'Renaissance Duet')
« Reply #156 on: February 11, 2018, 07:54:57 PM »
Having viewed and read the above and having had a look at some of the visual sources I think it's reasonable to assume a banner with the  Imperial eagle between the pillars of Hercules would likely be carried. Possibly not by a unit of Landsknechts  but by someone who looked like one and mebbee only when the emperor was present.

There at least three portraits I've seen that look like this:

Charles V had it on his tent:

and there's this image from the Battle of Pavia tapestries that puts a spanner in the works as has a banner with the Imperial eagle followed by the tinderbox and St Andrews cross of Burgundy  within the pillars of Hercules (left hand top corner):

My personal view is Renaissance princes never lost an opportunity for self promotion and if they could do it they would, cheers Pete



Offline FierceKitty

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Re: Curt's Great Italian Wars Project (Updated Feb 7/18: 'Renaissance Duet')
« Reply #157 on: February 11, 2018, 11:32:29 PM »
Good research there.
The laws of probability do not apply to my dice in wargames or to my finesses in bridge.

Offline puster

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Re: Curt's Great Italian Wars Project (Updated Feb 7/18: 'Renaissance Duet')
« Reply #158 on: February 12, 2018, 01:50:29 PM »
Having viewed and read the above and having had a look at some of the visual sources I think it's reasonable to assume a banner with the  Imperial eagle between the pillars of Hercules would likely be carried. Possibly not by a unit of Landsknechts  but by someone who looked like one and mebbee only when the emperor was present.

I assume that a unit bearing his personal emblem would be directly attached to Charles. I have, however, not heard of any guard infantry units, and he rarely was present in the field. The Vienna campaign of 1532 (without battle), Tunis 1535 or the Schmalkaldian war could be candidates (though for the latter two the unit on the front page is a bit on the early side). It probably would make a good flag for a command group, though.

EDIT: Perhaps we can assume that this particular bunch of Landsknechts was recruited in the (then) Imperial city of Besancon?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besan%C3%A7on
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 04:14:11 PM by puster »

Offline RichBliss

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Re: Curt's Great Italian Wars Project (Updated Feb 7/18: 'Renaissance Duet')
« Reply #159 on: February 12, 2018, 05:11:56 PM »

EDIT: Perhaps we can assume that this particular bunch of Landsknechts was recruited in the (then) Imperial city of Besancon?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besan%C3%A7on

Good call!  Perfect justification for it.  ;)

Offline Curt

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Re: Curt's Great Italian Wars Project (Updated Feb 7/18: 'Renaissance Duet')
« Reply #160 on: February 15, 2018, 04:29:56 PM »
(Jolts awake from his stupor.)

'The Landsknechts of Besancon'. That's gotta nice ring to it. So, we're all happy then? Brilliant. Well, I'm glad that's all cleared up.

We'll move right along, just give me a moment to finish gluing some pretty imperial eagles on my British line standards... :)

 

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