A Very Vatican Civil War

[Mad Carew Snr]

I am not the moderator of this thread and I am not a Catholic, but I do not see anything very offensive in posts here. We make jokes, all in good humour but definitely edgier, about , for example, each others nationality all the time here. The reason I mention this at all is because I very much hope that we will not resort to the lowest common level of what's offensive and not. Tolerance is a two ways thing, after all.

I'm quite sure that most readers take this in the spirit it was intended; good humour.

[Doc Twilight]

Aside from the implication that the Church helped smuggle Nazis to Argentina... which borders on pretty darn offensive, nothing else particularly bothered me, as a Catholic.

-Doc

[carlos marighela]

Well for my part it was mostly in jest and no real offence meant. Here is not the place but for those protesting implications of church involvement in the escape of wanted Nazis post war I suggest they do a little research into Bishop Alois Hudal or maybe Krunsoslav Dragonovic.

It has been fairly well established that a number of senior members of the Roman Catholic Church assisted wanted German, Austrian, French and Croatian war criminals escape, Bishop Hudal, being a principle organiser. They helped falsify papers to allow these folk to obtain travel documents, hid a number out in religious houses and helped in various other ways. It's a matter of record that it was  in part the influence of other clerics that saw doors open for these people in various Latin American Countries, notably Argentina.

It's somewhat ironic that the bit in my light hearted response, that really does contain a grain of truth is the bit that causes offence. Funny old world. A criticism of the clergy does not imply an attack on the laity.

[Doc Twilight]

Would it help if I pointed out that worldwide, most Catholics tend to be Liberal or Left Leaning, and therefore, anti-Fascist? Or that Priests sided with the Republicans during the Spanish Civil War, or that the Vatican saved thousands of Jews (my own flesh and blood included). Would it help if I pointed out that most American Catholics voted against Bush, despite the vocal right wing minority in the faith? Should I mention the Bavarian Bishop imprisoned by the Germans for speaking out against the Holocaust? Or perhaps the Church's excommunication of baptized Roman Catholics involved in crimes against Humanity during the recent Balkan crisis?

I'm not a lockstep reactionary,nor am I a bible thumper,  nor am I  particularly fond of every Church policy (not crazy about the new "Vatican II is a bad idea" attitude among certain ultra-conservative factions of the church), but I have to draw the line at pointing out one insidious flaw as a "light hearted joke" and dismissing it as something "people should get over". Your implication is that we should look at the actions of these men and condemn every Catholic for them. I would point out that a handful of bishops do not represent church policy or doctrine (they didn't then, they don't today), any more than the PTL, Pat Robertson, or Ian Paisley represent the majority of Protestants.

At any rate, to be quite frank, I find any "humor" associated with the holocaust to be low brow, at best.  


-Doc

[carlos marighela]

Leaving aside the fairly obvious point that it wasn't a holocaust related gag you have misinterpreted my remarks. I did make the point that an attack of the clergy does not represent an attack on the laity. Now we could debate the political leanings of practicising Catholics all day, I suspect I'm just as well informed as you on that point. I'd opine that your generalisation is a rather fatuous one or at least one for which it is impossible to muster any empirical evidence. But of course that's not the point.

There is no implication that you should condemn every Catholic on the basis of the actions of a few of its members. Sorry but that's an implication you have chosen to make, not me. You're quite right in the sense that such a point would be essentially the same as saying all Germans are responsible for Hitler or all Serbs for Milosevic. I made no such point. There is considerable empirical evidence for the actions of a handful of senior Catholic clergy in assisting those, who quite rightly most Catholics or decent thinking folk of any stripe or persausion would condemn.

Should you want to debate the matter further, quite happy to do so via PM or email.

BTW the use of quotation marks  ( " ) indicates an actual attribution  drawn from someone's remarks. Something worth noting should you wish to engage in serious debate.

[Hammers]

I wager the Prof. will lock this thread very soon anyway.

[commissarmoody]

WOW this thred turned dark pretty fast.

[Captain Blood]

Religion. Does it every time... 

[meninobesta]

well this is turning into a LAF Civil war ... wait that gives an idea:
Metal vs Plastic vs Resin, the unpainted wing, the lead mountain activists and the napoleonic button counters!

[Hammers]

Religion. Does it every time... 

Amen to that... 

[Captain Blood]

See I only did Iceland. But you had to raise me to The Vatican! 
 
Swedish brinkmanship lands us in trouble again...

[garyapsledene]

Ok, let’s clear one thing out, I am a Catholic and I can understand some of the remarks on the sensitive matter about the Church helping the Nazis escape to South America, I must point out that it was NOT the Church but a few individuals who decided on their own initiative to help the Nazis.

We all know that in just about every religion on earth there is some fools who acts against their own faith and in their own self interest, and today, we find that nothing has changed in the 21st Century of a few fools and maniacs who acts totally against their own faith but claim its just motive.

As much as I love history and wargaming, but talking about priests helping Nazis has nothing to do with wargaming at all but making a political / religion point, which as some in this forum has shown to be offensive.

Lets focus on wargaming for fun or reacting historical events, and by all means have Nuns/Monks with guns, wearing different colour habits on each side. And keep everything light shall we?

Gary

[Hammers]

See I only did Iceland. But you had to raise me to The Vatican! 
 
Swedish brinkmanship lands us in trouble again...

*takes a bow*

Thank you! I aim to annoy.

[Lowtardog]

Thought I had signed into TMP there for a moment

Everyone knows anyway the Salvation army would win

[commissarmoody]

We need to rename this the 30 year war thred