GLORY DEEP - Subfighter Combat in the Near Future

[aliensurfer]

very nice

[Bravo Six]

I've written a bit of backstory and setting for the actual Tasmantis campaign, but that's perhaps for another post

Oh I DO like me a good backstory! Looking forward to that!

[Andym]

I’m really looking forward to this project! Your work already, is brilliant! The whale paint job on that last ship is amazing, and the original ship DOES have that Gerry Anderson feel! Fantastic all!

[Cypher226]

This is truly inspirational, a great example of the scratch builders art 

[Macrossmartin]

While sitting in my secret, underwater condo watching the fish shoaling above the Challenger Plateau, 500m below the Tasman Sea, I found myself ruminating over the direction I want to take Glory Deep.

In spite of my own desire to release a range of miniatures for Glory Deep (although that'd be next year at the earliest), it makes me oddly uncomfortable. Let me explain my discomfort...

If you've been reading from the start of this thread, you'll know I dreamed up Glory Deep as a tribute to Gerry Anderson's Stingray. When I was a kid, I always felt inspired by the Supermarionation shows because they looked like something I could do, with a pile of old Airfix kits, railway modelling scenery, and an uncommonly large collection of toothpaste caps.

That's not a snide criticism of the Anderson FX team and modellers; it is proof that they understood their audience perfectly, because in many ways they were indulging their inner child, building the toys they always wanted.

Making the Manta and Wahaika satisfied my own inner kid in a way that just buying and painting a stock miniature does not. I'm sure you can relate. Looking at your own collection, would I be right in thinking you take the greatest pride in the stuff you converted, personalised, customised, or build from scratch? The stuff that is uniquely yours?

That's one reason why I am uncomfortable with pumping out yet another range of niche sci-fi miniatures. As proud as I might be of my achievement, its not a pride other gamers could share. 

The other reason I have already alluded to; landfill. There's a frightening amount of plastic crap that pours into our oceans by the hour. You could literally build a bridge from Alaska to Japan if you could gather all the plastic in the Pacific for the purpose. (Now that's what I call scratchbuilding!)

As a hobby, wargaming contribute a laughably small amount to the world junkpile. But, contribute it does. So, what if we actively reduced that contribution by sparking an enthusiasm amongst ourselves to make cool gaming models out of household plastic refuse? Sounds like a win-win to me!

BUT—! As has been pointed out earlier in this thread; Not everyone is a crazy, glue-sniffing modelling fiend. Saying 'do it yourself' can be an act of exclusion for some gamers, and that's not a good thing. So, is there a happy middle-ground between elitist, planet-saving scratchbuilding and inclusive, dolphin-killing miniature production?

Well, how about this for an idea...



So, a series of resin cast components that can be glued to conveniently submarine-shaped containers and appliances stolen saved from bathroom cabinets, under kitchen skinks, and the Girl Scouts' recycling drive.

I could sculpt a series of fins, conning towers, bolt-on weapons and sonars, podded water turbines, etc. with these, players would be free to match such parts to their salvaged item of choice, and make the super-submarines of their dreams.

This sketch shows a shampoo bottle, but anything of almost any size could serve the same purpose. Deodorant roll-ons, computer mouses, pill bottles, soap cases, toothbrushes, cigar tubes, pens, Pez dispensers, flashlights, egg-timers, etc, etc!


Marine Max? Or the Waterworld we should have had?


The thing is though, not everyone has access to the same pool of deodorants, or defunct shavers, or whatever. Therefore, there's going to be an acute lack of standardisation between any two Glory Deep fleets. That suggests to me a less-organised, less-civilised setting then I've imagined. But in many ways, I'm okay with that, because I think I'll get a real kick out of seeing what craziness gamers will stick together!

So, that's the very start of the path I think I'm now following. What do you think of this idea?

[YPU]

Sounds like an awesome idea! If you need some parts 3d sculpted you know where to find me. 

[Macrossmartin]

Sounds like an awesome idea! If you need some parts 3d sculpted you know where to find me. 

I'll probably take you up on that. 

I think it'll give greater variety if I have more sculptors than just myself turning out bits and pieces.

[has.been]

I am loving where you are going with this.
Please note that I have been preparing 'Interesting bits'
in my garage for over a decade now.
To be fair to me I have used some of it, even got the kids
at school (pre Lock-Down) interested. Each was given some
old CDs (to be used as a bases) & free reign with two boxes
of said 'interesting bits'.  I expected them to have a couple
of weeks to work their creative geniuses. They have now had
a couple of months, & counting. Hope they have not wasted
the time.

[Commander Roj]

A bit like plastic Gaslands sprues. My only concern is that we might end up with much larger subs, and more storage space. There would seem to be less, smaller containers in the size range we were talking about.

[Macrossmartin]

A bit like plastic Gaslands sprues. My only concern is that we might end up with much larger subs, and more storage space. There would seem to be less, smaller containers in the size range we were talking about.

Very much along the same vibe as Gaslands. I hear you on the point of scale; its that balancing act between big = presence (and easier for less-coordinated fingers) versus small = convenience (cheaper, less playing space).

Offering the parts in different scales would not be impossible, depending on demand. Studio Bergstrom offer my Woomera Shipyards starships in 2 scales to satisfy collectors of FASA and Starline 2500 Trek / SFB ships.

It might be a bit of a popularity contest to determine exactly which scales will work, but the dimensions of suitable found objects will definitely be a governing factor.

That suggests to me that I need to find the disposable plastic object equivalent of a McDonalds Cheeseburger: Something that is universally found and discarded throughout the western world, to act as the 'template' for each submarine of a certain size or class.

I have no doubt there's a lot of things here in Australia which are unique to our consumerist, throwaway society, but I will do some research, and make more Subfighters! 

[Munindk]

Add on resin parts sounds like a great idea

While I agree that its easier to find large containers, leading to larger subs, there are plenty of smaller containers out there.

Off the top of my head:

Lipgloss/lipstick/lipbalm
Gum/tic tac/other candy containers
Caps from markers and pens
Tacs and pins

Step out of the bathroom and look at candy shelves and office supplies instead

It might be harders to make bits for these, as they're less standardised in size compared to shampoo bottles, and they might need a bit more gapfilling and putty work, but its possible.

I guess I went from "no problem" to "its possible, but harder" during my post.

[Commander Roj]

I can make the startling revelation that I have been eyeing certain liquid soap dispenser tops as the source of a fleet of manta-like boats for years, but not got around to it. I will take some photos later of the types I mean, if I can find some. I also have some old sketches of this sort of thing, again, if I can find them...

[precinctomega]

Hello, again, Martin!

Some thoughts:

1.  I *love* your scratchbuilds.  Both the hobby behind them and the philosophy underpinning them speak loudly to me.  And, of course, it has the "Rick Priestley classic deodorant bottle hover tank" thing going on.

2.  The concept of a subfighter combat game - especially one inspired by Stingray but with a 21st century aesthetic - is brilliant and seems eminently marketable, to me (to some extent, *more* marketable than your Saucer Wars game).

3.  The size of the converted/scratchbuilt vessels presents a problem in both marketing and play in that they represent a significant need for storage space when not playing and play space when on the table.  Fighter games like Aeronautica, Blood Red Skies and X Wing have been successful - among other reasons - because they've found a scale level that allows the players to utilize a modest table size with tactical aplomb.  It's no coincidence that these all have ships of a similar size (if not scale).

4.  You admit that the rules you currently have need a lot of work, so I would suggest that you need to take it in one of two directions.  Either the source of scratchbuilt minis needs to get smaller (less shampoo bottles and more lip balm sticks) and the large scratchbuilt vessels play a reduced role (or step back to being purely aesthetic projects).  Or you need to change the dynamic of the game to make the use of the larger models more thematic - for example, having a game where each player would use only 1-3 models and the amount of actual manoeuvre/movement is relatively limited, whilst "action" occurs "off table" in crew/tech interactions (a little like Space Cadet, for example).

[Easy E]

I love a good sub game! 

I do agree with Precinct on some of his thoughts.  The Shaver models are ace and look amazing, they are too big for a decent sized game unless it is 1v1, or the shaver models are the "Carriers/Big Boys" while much of the fighting is done by swarms of drones or other smaller scale fighter subs (think Armada style)

If you are going 1v1 then fiddly rules are preferred with lots of small interactions.  If they are carriers then your rules scope needs to abstract upwards.  I guess my first question is "How big do you want the game to be?"

The second question I have with subgames is always how do you balance maneuver with stealth.  The most optimal method to detection is to not move, but a game where both sides just sit on the bottom of the ocean and wait for the other player to move is NOT compelling.  How do you force some of this action in your game?   

Finally, there is the business side of things.... who will buy this and why will they want to buy it?  Is the genre hook enough or do you need something more to your pitch?

I hope this helps because this is a great idea!   

[Commander Roj]

I think you force movement through scenario’s; escort, sweep, transit etc, not knowing what mission the other player draws, and maybe exactly how long you have to do it...