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Author Topic: Question regarding differences between late 14th and early 15th C armour  (Read 996 times)

Offline The_Wanderer

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Hi guys,

I'm thinking of doing a small late 14th C force based around the White Company in Italy. This would be focused around the tail end of Sir John Hawkwood's time leading it (1380/1390) and I'd be keen to use the Perry plastic Agincourt range. Can anyone tell me what the main differences in armour are between the period I am interested in and that depicted on the models?

From what I can see it seems that mail aventails for helmets were much more common and plate gorgets/throat defences had yet to come in. I'm not aiming for 100% accuracy but would like the force to fit the period when looking from a distance for example.

Thanks for your help  :)
15th Century Swiss Blog: http://hrothgarswiss.blogspot.co.uk/

Offline commissarmoody

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Re: Question regarding differences between late 14th and early 15th C armour
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2020, 07:13:14 AM »
Sounds like your off to a good start. More coat of Plate and brigandine then full plate armor. And gambeson still being prominent as well.
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Offline Atheling

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Re: Question regarding differences between late 14th and early 15th C armour
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2020, 10:29:15 AM »
A good place to start researching armours from between late 14th and early 15th C is actually the Osprey books below:

English Medieval Knight 1300-1400: 058 (Warrior)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/English-Medieval-Knight-1300-1400-Warrior/dp/1841761451/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=english+medieval+knight&qid=1603362519&sr=8-1

English Medieval Knight 1400-1500: 035 (Warrior)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/English-Medieval-Knight-1400-1500-Warrior/dp/184176146X/ref=pd_bxgy_3/259-3527557-7712218?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=184176146X&pd_rd_r=9f9e26a0-88c5-4b5a-9451-c7161e99bf1a&pd_rd_w=3T9C2&pd_rd_wg=WVqZ5&pf_rd_p=dcf35746-0212-418b-a148-30395d107b2d&pf_rd_r=SFZ6BHVGSZGTDFZ3ZRMJ&psc=1&refRID=SFZ6BHVGSZGTDFZ3ZRMJ

They really aren't too bad. At the other end of the scale there's Tobias Capwell's, Armour of the English Knight 1400-1450 which is a supremely detailed study of the armours of that period in England. Volume 2, 1450 1500 was scheduled for publication but I think Covid intervened and it has been delayed. That's what I was informed. Don't buy it on Ebay or Amazon as it's going for very inflated prices

https://wallacecollectionshop.org/products/armour-of-the-english-knight-1400-1450

I really do recommend really digging into this subject of armours as they. like many aspects Late Medieval life, are a varied and nuanced topic.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 09:59:37 PM by Atheling »

Offline commissarmoody

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Re: Question regarding differences between late 14th and early 15th C armour
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2020, 06:37:30 AM »
Oh yeah, if we are suggesting osprey books. Might I also suggest the "Condottiere 1300-1500" and "Castagnaro 1387" books.

Offline The_Wanderer

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Re: Question regarding differences between late 14th and early 15th C armour
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2020, 08:18:55 AM »
Cheers guys - will certainly have a look at them. I've seen alot of the illustrations from those books which have been very helpful in getting an idea of what armour during the periods looked like  :)

Offline Atheling

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Re: Question regarding differences between late 14th and early 15th C armour
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2020, 10:47:02 AM »
Cheers guys - will certainly have a look at them. I've seen alot of the illustrations from those books which have been very helpful in getting an idea of what armour during the periods looked like  :)

If you're really interested in getting it right the Capwell book is your best bet though he does not look at armours earlier then 1400 in any detail. It will however give you the best and most up to date details of what English armours consisted of etc from the dates 1400-1450. As I said, for later armours then wait for his next book which has been delayed.

BTW, The Perry armours are sculpted almost down to the last 'point' (sorry, bad pun) for 1415-1430 and the (beautiful) Claymore Castings Matthew Bickley stuff is mostly concentrated on the time of Crecy 1346. The earlier Claymore Castings Paul Hicks sculpts are aimed more at Otterburn 1388. Armour was continually changing to suit the battlefield needs as quite a pace in the period we now know as the Hundrted Years War.

If you contact David at Claymore he will be able to point you in the direction of what is circa Crecy and Otterburn. He's a lovely guy and is always very helpful.


Offline bluewillow

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Re: Question regarding differences between late 14th and early 15th C armour
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2020, 09:42:10 PM »
The heavies in armour are to heavy for 1488, the leg and arm harness is completely different, no round poleyns or large pouldrons, nor besagues, the plate belt also was not in use, plus a majority of the helms are incorrect visors and the great helms are totally wrong.

The lighter armed French in gambersons would be ok, but your knights will all need to come from a different manufacturer.

Cheers
Matt
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Wargame in the afternoon"™
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Offline The_Wanderer

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Re: Question regarding differences between late 14th and early 15th C armour
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2020, 08:25:35 AM »
Thanks guys. I think what I'm going to do is try and kitbash some earlier knight models using the French infantry box, as the Perrys suggested you could do. I may then make up the later knights as a separate unit and could then potentially create two armies, one late 14th C and one early 15th C, as I imagine the archers are fairly interchangable between these periods.

Thanks for your help  :)

Offline Atheling

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Re: Question regarding differences between late 14th and early 15th C armour
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2020, 09:08:28 AM »
I imagine the archers are fairly interchangable between these periods.



Not really. You will get away with post Battle of Otterburn/Battle of Shrewsbury but not any earlier. Not if you're concerned with getting the archers 'right' that is. If you're not too bothered like you have suggested then by all means go ahead and do it. At the end of the day they're your mini's and what you do with them is up to you.

Personally, I wouldn't use the Archers for anything earlier than Shrewsbury 1403.

Offline Mako

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Re: Question regarding differences between late 14th and early 15th C armour
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2020, 06:30:03 PM »
From what I've seen and read, it appears that in the 1300s a lot of the knights and MAAs wore open-faced helms (pointed helms), and more mail armor, with some plate over that - Crecy and Poitiers.  Of course, I suspect some would have face coverings of armor too, since they did all the way back to the different Crusades eras as well.

Of course, with the various drawings, and/or paintings, perhaps the artists were deleting the face coverings on purpose to show the expression on the men's faces, and taking free license to do so.  I have read that many artists tended to depict men in their current day's armor, instead of the more accurate armor from the time of the actual battles they are depicting, on many occasions, not having been there to observe those first-hand, which can be problematical too.

"A hounskull, called in Germany a hundsgugel, was a form of steel helmet worn in Europe in the Middle Ages, almost invariably by knights and other mounted men-at-arms, from the middle of the 14th century until approximately 1420. It offered extensive protection for the wearer's face at the cost of some visibility, but its distinctive visor could be raised or lowered at will".  It's also referred to as a pig face helm.

From around 1400 on, plate seems to become more and more predominant.

I'm no expert of course, but that is the overall impression I've been left with, by reading some of the above, and looking at various photos of the periods in question.

 

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