Tips for starting ancient Wargaming

[Descho]

Hello,
a friend and I want to start ancient wargaming. We play Saga AoV and AoC and thought about Age of Hannibal, but we both want a rank and file system for the feel and look of the time. I have a few questions before I start buying things.
- He is pretty set to use the Swordpoint rules, any thoughts about them?
- If using the Swordpoint basing (40x40 mm for infantry, 50x50 mm for cavalry), how compatible is that with other rules?
- I'm thinking about starting Pyrrhic/early Successors with Victrix models (successor phalangites/light greek cavalry/mercenary hoplites for italiotes). Are these accurate enough for these armies? Any tips for some additional historical flavour?

Thanks in advance.

[williamb]

Most rules use what is referred to as DBX basing or larger bases that can be made by combining DBX bases.   There are two frontages 60mm for 20mm or larger figures and 40mm for 15/18mm or smaller.   Base depths vary depending on troop type while frontage is the same for all.   
I cannot comment on Swordpoint as I have not read or played them.   
LE Art de La Guerre, DBM, DBMM, DBA, Field of Glory and others are popular rule sets for tournaments.   I may be wrong, but as far as I know all except To the Strongest (which uses larger base sizes) use DBX basing.
Hail Caesar, and similar which are intended for 28mm use a different basing system.
Madaxeman has a website that has a lot of tournament battle reports, figure reviews, etc. and is an interesting read

Pyrrhus retrained the Tarantines as phalangites.   There are quite a few books available covering him and the successors.  Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars, though a bit dated, is a decent general book covering all the armies of that period.  Most if not all of the rules used for tournaments have army lists that can be used as guides for the type of troops fielded by each army.

Hope this helps.

[vodkafan]

Descho you might want to read my friend Westbury's Successor thread here:

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=124771.0

He is trying all of the available rulesets and discusses their pros and cons as he goes.  Might save you some time at least.

[WuZhuiQiu]

Hail Caesar, and similar which are intended for 28mm use a different basing system.

Actually, I believe that Hail Caesar is more flexible, such that DBx basing could still be accommodated.

And, for other systems such as Art de la Guerre, it would depend on whether you'd be interested in tournament gaming, for which 60mm frontages seem to be popular, as if we were still in the days of 25mm to-the-top-of-the-head Hinchliffe and Minifigs. If not, then at least your 40mm square basing could, in multiples of two, equate to Art de la Guerre's recommended base width of 80mm for 28mm figures.

[SJWi]

Descho, as a player of Simon Miller's To the Strongest I can't comment on Swordpoint except to say they are now at version 2 so must have done pretty well. I'd check out some of the U-Tube reviews.  Two other comments. You may want to consider basing individually and using sabot bases. This permits you to use your figures for multiple game systems. Secondly, are you wedded to 28mm figures? I use 28s but if starting from scratch today may look at 15mm or even smaller. 

[wmyers]

SJWi gives some good advice!

Each figure size has advantages.  If you have lots of room use 28mm. If you want more maneuvering use 15/18mm.  Or even 10mm. 

[SteveBurt]

To the strongest works fine with DBx basing. I use 4 bases for normal units, 2 for small, and 6 for deep

[SJWi]

Steve, I understand that you can use multiple bases to make up a TTS unit. It just so happens that by accident I use “Impetus” bases for 28mm which work fine with a 15mm grid. I may recommend using some form of sabot if using multiple bases.

[Doom Beard 78]

hi Descho

On a different thread, Atheling posted up a link to Youtube videos with guides to the Swordpoint

You can see the videos on my blog here:
https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2020/10/swordpoint-how-to-play-videos-by.html

Or here are the direct links in sequence to Nic's Medieval Warrior page on YouTube:
Why I like SWORDPOINT Rules- "Line of Battle"



Units are made up of variable numbers of bases. Typically 4 figures to a base for foot, 2 for cavalry and 2 for skirmishers.  The standard army is 1000 points and that means around 150-200 figures a side on a 6' x 4' table. The profiles for each base are much simpler than many rules with factors for defence and cohesion only…"

so may take a while to get an army ready

The best thing with wargames rules is to play through them a few times as it takes a while to get to grips with the rules and to understand the nuances of them.
if you don't have the figures than just play with card bases. The only issue I can see is whether 4 figures based foe SAGA will fit on a 40x40 base.


 If you find that they are not for you, then welcome to the long slog of exploring other options. There are LOTS of rules- some are fast, some slow, some written in conversational English, others are written in psuedo-legaleees, while others seem like exercises in bookkeeping. 

Have fun

[Easy E]

Question for you? 

What do you like about he SAGA engine and are there things you know you like in a game?  The thing about Ancients is that it is a HUGE buffet of rules based on the type of game you are looking for. 

Do you want casualty removal?  Do you want a heavy emphasis on command and control?  Do you like grid based movement?  Do you not know? 

[Jjonas]

- He is pretty set to use the Swordpoint rules, any thoughts about them?

I found them to lack excitement for Hellenistic battles (granted I never got to play Romans only other Successors) my opponents mostly found the games less than engaging- the battle line rules are meant to slow down flank maneuvers but the distribution of losses always caused a stasis that never seemed to break into a result. Some of the conversions from a WAB like system to multi-base removal means a lot of things are schematized, sometimes there is a lot of dice rolling for no results.
Skirmishers often don't have enough dice to inflict casualties, but they seem to be deliberately reduced in effectiveness in favor of compatibility with later periods where light troops were less often employed in set battlefield roles. Since the skirmisher battle in Hellenistic/Punic War battles is a key part of the action- we felt that was undermining our enjoyment.

Some troops are favored by the system in odd ways- Galatians (Celts) are better than phalangites simple because they can get moving and get around flanks and break lines and are not that penalized for being unarmored.
But ultimately I prefer a single figure removal game- which makes me a dinosaur. And my comments are completely about one period only. A new supplement has been added specifically for the Hellenistic armies that may have changed some things that I mentioned above.

- If using the Swordpoint basing (40x40 mm for infantry, 50x50 mm for cavalry), how compatible is that with other rules?

I found the bassing system to be ok for most other games- however I'd prefer a wider front for sabot system and visual feed back. Certainly the bases are compatible to some extent with Warhammer frontages. I'm sure the basing system will work with any of the unit removal systems out there and you can still use casualty caps! The multi bases may be a hinderance for some skirmish style games.

- I'm thinking about starting Pyrrhic/early Successors with Victrix models (successor phalangites/light greek cavalry/mercenary hoplites for italiotes). Are these accurate enough for these armies?

Those should work out fine for general units. Tarentines are a bit more flamboyant cavalry than the Victrix (but you could possibly use Italian cavalry).


Any tips for some additional historical flavour?

Hard to say what a retrained Tarentine phalangite would look like but Italiote hoplites might be a good start.

Here are some Tarentine cavalry by Relic and other 28mm miniatures:
https://ancientbattles.com/Early_Successors_Armies_JJonas/WSS_Crossover_Armies_Tarentine_Cavalry_002%20small.jpg
https://ancientbattles.com/Early_Successors_Armies_JJonas/Early_Successors_JJ_MSJ_2020_012%20small.jpg

The Aventine figure line has figures more specifically pointed at Pyrrhic Successors:
https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/Aventine%20Phalanx%20file%20leaders%20PH001a.JPG

Elephants are Indian (Victrix are African):

Relic Aventine Polemarch and others populate this elephant battle photo, most models are now in resin:
https://ancientbattles.com/elephantarchia/Raphia_2017_MSF_001.jpg

The Relic version is ok as well:
https://ancientbattles.com/elephantarchia/elphantarchia_001.jpg

This is an older Vendel resin elephant:
https://ancientbattles.com/Vendel_elephants/epirote_elephants_01.htm

This is my old Foundry Pyrrhus:
https://ancientbattles.com/Pyrrhus/pyrrhus_01.htm

Dr. Phil Hendry did this fantastic job on the Aventine Pyrrhic forces:
http://philhendry.webmate.me/Phil_Wargaming_Website/pyrrhic-army-album/index.html

Macedonian Early Successor page for troop types:
https://ancientbattles.com/Early_Successors_Armies_JJonas/Early_Successor_Armies_AncientBattles_2020.html

My Relic vs. Aventine vs. Foundry Pyrrhus:

[Descho]

Thanks for all your replies.

I have ordered Victrix Successor Phalangites and Macedonian Successor Cavalry. I am not that much a history buff, but it was a lot of fun to read about Pyrrhic/Successor Wars. Even if we don't like the rules it will be a fun modelling project for me and i can use another ruleset sometimes.

[Doom Beard 78]

If you've not read it  Pen and Sword have a book on the life of Pyrhus which is very readable by Jeff Champion, its called Pyrhus of Epirus.
The WRG mentioned previously is a good primer on the subject.