Medieval Welsh

[Erik]

I have often thought about building a Welsh force to battle the English. However I am challenged in terms of miniatures. There are plenty dark age Welsh miniatures out there but no medieval. The only ones I have found so fare are the ones from Old Glory. Are there any other suggestions? I am looking for unarmored or lightly armored infantry with spears. Would the Perry French infantry perhaps do?

Cheers
Erik.

[Atheling]

I have often thought about building a Welsh force to battle the English. However I am challenged in terms of miniatures. There are plenty dark age Welsh miniatures out there but no medieval. The only ones I have found so fare are the ones from Old Glory. Are there any other suggestions? I am looking for unarmored or lightly armored infantry with spears. Would the Perry French infantry perhaps do?

Cheers
Erik.

What period are you talking about Erik?

From about the 11th-12th Centuries they would have started to look very much like their English counterparts.

[Erik]

I was mainly thinking about the Glyndwr rebelion. If Welsh infantry looked like English Them I gues any generic medieval infantry will do.

[Atheling]

For the Glyndwr Rebellion against Henry IV then very little cosmetic difference at all.

In 1415 there was one such Dafydd ap Llewelyn ap Hywel aka Davy Gam, not a mere invention from Shakespeare, who formed one of the core soldiers in Henry V retinue.

Really, there would have been almost no discernible difference. Quite often, I think the so called Dark Ages in northern Europe suffers very much from this, we create/exaggerate the cosmetic differences on miniatures to enhance the games, which is fine.

[janner]

Agreed, it is my impression that troops from across northwestern Europe looked broadly similar to each other in the Middle Ages, i.e. the idea that outlaying areas were militarily backward is no longer considered safe.

The forces of wealthy urban guilds and the retinues of magnates would more likely to be well-equipped and sport the latest military fashions, and some areas might be more likely to generate certain types of troops (like Hobilars, for example), but a spearman from North Wales would look little different to his opponent from Shropshire.

There are indications of minor variations caused by military culture, i.e. men-at-arms that routinely fought dismounted seemingly wore less armour to protect the rare of their thighs c.1400, but within the British Isles I haven't seen indications of significant differences 🤷‍♂️

[Atheling]

There are indications of minor variations caused by military culture, i.e. men-at-arms that routinely fought dismounted seemingly wore less armour to protect the rare of their thighs c.1400, but within the British Isles I haven't seen indications of significant differences 🤷‍♂️

Armour of the English Knight, Tobias Capwell 1400-1450 is the best book on the subject. Meticulously researched not to mention wonderfully illustrated.
https://wallacecollectionshop.org/products/armour-of-the-english-knight-1400-1450

He has another book on it's way, Armour of the English Knight, Tobias Capwell 1450-1500 but the publication has been "delayed".

[janner]

Armour of the English Knight, Tobias Capwell 1400-1450 is the best book on the subject. Meticulously researched not to mention wonderfully illustrated.
https://wallacecollectionshop.org/products/armour-of-the-english-knight-1400-1450

He has another boon, Armour of the English Knight, Tobias Capwell 1450-1500 on it's way but the publication has been "delayed".

Yes, we used Toby’s research and advice to steer a reproduction of John, 4th Baron Harrington’s armour as depicted on his effigy in Porlock, Somerset, and there suggestions of a particular ‘English’ style. It is, however, based on a limited evidence and there are many more examples of English men-at-arms depicted in armour of a similar style to their continental cousins, as well as in that of other parts of the British Isles.

[Atheling]

Yes, we used Toby’s research and advice to steer a reproduction of John, 4th Baron Harrington’s armour as depicted on his effigy in Porlock, Somerset, and there suggestions of a particular ‘English’ style.

Yep.

It is, however, based on a limited evidence and there are many more examples of English men-at-arms depicted in armour of a similar style to their continental cousins, as well as in that of other parts of the British Isles.

Most English Armours of the period have continental influences mate.

[Charlie_]

There are indications of minor variations caused by military culture, i.e. men-at-arms that routinely fought dismounted seemingly wore less armour to protect the rare of their thighs c.1400, but within the British Isles I haven't seen indications of significant differences 🤷‍♂️

Wait, surely that's the other way round? If you are fighting dismounted, surely you need more protection on the back of your legs - if you are on a horse, the back of the legs are in theory inaccessible, and armouring them would presumably make controlling the horse more difficult. I think the idea is that the English style of armour had MORE protection, including fully-enclosing cuisses?

[Blackwolf]

With the saddles and tack of the period controlling a horse wasn’t a problem,the bits were very severe et cetera.
As one is elevated on a horse,one is particularly susceptible to infantry,legs have to be well armoured,injured leg,loss of control. Of course I could be wrong

[janner]

Most English Armours of the period have continental influences mate.

Exactly, hence my opening comment about troops being generally similar across northwestern Europe 👍

[janner]

Wait, surely that's the other way round? If you are fighting dismounted, surely you need more protection on the back of your legs - if you are on a horse, the back of the legs are in theory inaccessible, and armouring them would presumably make controlling the horse more difficult. I think the idea is that the English style of armour had MORE protection, including fully-enclosing cuisses?

The evidence is that dismounted men-at-arms had less protection to the rear of the upper thigh - most likely for greater agility.

As Blackwolf posts, in my experience, fully enclosed legs do not reduce one’s ability to control and properly trained mount in period tack 👍

[Atheling]

I think we're kind of missing the point a little in generalisations (including me ). When a man at arms ordered his armour he would have made his own personal decisions as to just how he wanted the armour made according to his means. I'm not at all saying that there were not certain trends based on just how they fought, there clearly were.

[Erik]

Armor discussion aside, can we all agree that a Welsh army in the 15th century would look the same as an English one and that you can go right ahead and use the Perry plastics for the archers and spearmen?

A little boring really. I guess with a lot of flags you might be able to give it a Welsh look.


cheers
Erik

[TWD]

Armor discussion aside, can we all agree that a Welsh army in the 15th century would look the same as an English one and that you can go right ahead and use the Perry plastics for the archers and spearmen?

A little boring really. I guess with a lot of flags you might be able to give it a Welsh look

That seems to be the consensus, though I'm going to swap the bills on a unit of mine for spears (regardless that the words were possibly used interchangeably) to make a unit of Welsh "levy"