A new ancients question!

[Tim Haslam]

I’m not very well read up on the Pontic armies and the battles with Rome at that time.
I’m considering using a Pontic army, mainly as it’s an army I’ve never used before.

My question, historically the Pontic infantry seemed to switch from phalanx style warfare to imitation legionaries. Would there be a mix of phalanx and Roman style regiments in the same army, or either just phalanx or just legionary types?

Thanks

[Tim Haslam]

I’m pretty sure that the Seleucid armies had a mix of troop types?

[Easy E]

Pretty sure it was a mix, with imitation Legionaries being a minority.

[AdamPHayes]

I seem to remember reading that the phalanx was pretty poor quality and wiped out fairly early in the wars. The imitation legionaries were their replacements. As you say however the Selucids fielded them together so I would not stress about fielding both if you wanted to. Also bear in mind that there is a big question mark over the identity of what are known as Thorakites. These may well have been Roman style infantry which would open up the possibilities that quite a lot of mercenaries found in eastern armies were close to what we think of as Roman Legionaries.

[Mithridates1]

My 10 cents worth.

Pontics are very much a combined arms force, tricky to use.   I have been trying since the late 1970s  with mixed success!    Then I used converted Airfix British chariots with plastic card scythe blades!   Those were the days.   Wargames Research Group Rules/Lists.   WRG Lists provided some background history and their Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome book has more detail.

I have since switched to WAB, Hail Caesar, Art de la Guerre and Mortem et Gloriam. 

As you say the pikes - Brazen Shields and 'ex-slave' Phalanx - were wiped out after two early disasters.  Mithridates then re-organised along Roman lines.  Cohorts of 'Romanised' infantry - thureophoroi and legionaries.  Under ADLG you can have small numbers of legionaries alonside the pikes, with MeG it is one or the other.   It is possible Roman exiles/deserters trained small numbers of imitation legionaries who initially fought alongside the pikes.

ADLG does allow some heavy spearmen - thorakitai if you like - regardless which option you take.   MeG does not.

Both phalanxes did not perform well (understatement) though they stood up to the Roman legionaries initially.

So depends which lists/rules you decide to use.  Quite a few books on the subject.   LAF had a previous thread on Mithridates which includes quite a few references and opinions:

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=103308.msg1284302#msg1284302

I did like Alfred Duggan's "He Died Old" - maybe hard to get now but a good read.  Philip Matyszak's "Mithridates the Great" is more recent and has detail on the army and battles.   Appian also covers this in his Mithridatic Wars.

Good luck.   Any army that includes heavy cavalry, cataphracts, Sarmatians, Armenian Allies, pikes, legionaries, trained spearmen, Galatians, Bastarnae, Thracians, scythed chariots - what's not to like!  BTW, Relic Miniatures has Mithridates in 28mm.

Garry

[Rochejaquelein]

I recently received a copy of the same book mentioned by Mithradates1 (Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome ).

Some highlights:
Like Hannibal's Army, you have a ton of different units you can use as Pontus that can be used to create other armies in the future. Scythian and Sarmatian horse archers. Armenian cataphracts. Galatians and Cappadocians. Greek mercenary thorakitai.

After the battle of Chaeronea near the end of the the First Mithridatic War (86 BC), Pontus wouldn't field phalangites. Even then, the phalanx made a very small percentage of the Pontic infantry, let alone the army. Most infantry appear to be peltasts and other light infantry. Imitation legionnaires appear to show up during the second and third wars

Pontic cavalry not only made a larger proportion of the Pontic army, but overall performed better than their Roman counterparts.

[Tim Haslam]

All good information, thanks chaps.

[Psychlic Bob]

I am collecting this in 25mm for ADLG as I love the history - it looks great but can be a penny-packet army that gets picked apart.
Reckon on a very strong mounted wing with a holding centre of pike and imitation legionaries then a rough-terrain force

[Jjonas]

"My question, historically the Pontic infantry seemed to switch from phalanx style warfare to imitation legionaries. Would there be a mix of phalanx and Roman style regiments in the same army, or either just phalanx or just legionary types?"

Most of the options are listed very ably above.
The key issue with Pontic armies is they fought with what they had. Originally it was an army mostly made up of Asiatic and Black Sea Coastal folks. It seems to be a Hellenistic style phalanx as the citizen core, with asiatic noble cavalry - probably armored lancers like Kappadokians (neighbors). The other feature was a reliance on scythed chariots that brought them at least one notable success in a meeting engagement. The other issues is the longevity of the wars, the transfer to Greece as a theatre of operations. Picking up vast numbers of freed salves form Asia Minor on the way. Most troops that were worthy of garrison or line of battle were starting to operate with Romanized gear (but not especially Roman tactics). The Carians, and Galatians all started to evolve to what would become heavy auxiliaries in the Roman legion world. As such they were just a hop skip and jump from the vast numbers of thureophoroi mercenaries available. A victory column recently unearthed in Greece from one of Sulla's victories reveals  thureos shields on the Tropion column- or at least pieces. The concept of a freed slave phalanx is mushy because it seems likely that these troops were just unarmored extras tacked onto the rear ranks of the phalanx, not separate levy units.

As stated above the phalanx army was mostly exterminated in Greece. Mithridates went home and started to build actual Roman style cohorts. Roman deserters trained these legions. The concept of imitation legion is kind of bogus. That assumes that just having the money like the Seleucids to buy Roman looking gear made their guards operate like Romans. But the Seleucids were actually pretty much toast by the time of the Pontic wars.

The other key part of the Pontic army was its Horse archers and Sarmatians which might have included shock cavalry.

After Mithdrates died a Pontic army defeated a Roman allied Galatian army (which included one of  Caesar's legions). This Pontic arm seemed to be rearranged back to the style of army that originally came out, with a phalanx and scythed chariots. But that is vague. Caesar of course veni veni veci'ed that army when the scythed chariots charged uphill and were sent back down into their own army causing a 'comical' rout which ended any murmurs out of Pontus forevermore.

But yes it is a great combined arms force of many mediocre parts that can be wielded for striking results. Possibly the most successful version was when the army had 36 cohorts of Roman trained troops, but they were frittered away. And the Roman generals were smart and picked away at them finally forcing Mithridates to run off to the Crimea.

[Tim Haslam]

Wow!
Many thanks Jeff.

I’m only experimenting with Pontic, going to try them tomorrow.

I’ve got,
Pontic noble cavalry
Nomad horse
A big pike phalanx
Some scythed chariots
And lots of peltast types.
My choice is to add Galatian warband or these imitation legionary types?

I’m probably going to face a Phyric army, so I’m thinking the legionaries would be better..

[bigredbat]

It sounds like you have an early Pontic army; I'd go with the Galatians, they are way more fun in any case. :-)

[Tim Haslam]

Thanks Simon,
I’ll let you know tomorrow night……

[Jjonas]

Here is an early list I once used for a group game against lots of Late Republic Romans. Just for a sense of proportions. I'm not sure if this version of the points add up


Early Pontic Army
ARMY COMPOSITION (5729 points)
Characters: up to 25%  Cavalry: Up to 50%  Infantry: At least 25%  Allies and Mercenaries: Up to 25%

CHARACTERS (440)
Strategos
150
Hand weapon, heavy armor and thrusting spear. Horse is half barded. Army General. 3+ save
x2 Officers
90
Army Standard Bearer
110
Officers have a hand weapon, thrusting spear and shield, Heavy armor. Half Barded Horse. 3+ save
Army Standard Bearer, has a hand weapon, Heavy armor. Half Barded horse. 3+ save

CAVALRY (702 + 435 + 250 + 205 + 150 = 1742)
351
X2 @ 12x  Pontic Cavalry 28
Guards:     Hand weapon, Heavy armor, kontos, Horse Half barding. L+S+M. 4+ save.
Regulars:  Hand weapon, Heavy armor, Throwing spear and Horse Half barding. L+S+M. 4+ save.

435
12x  Sarmatian Cataphracts 35
Hand weapon, Heavy armor, kontos, Barded horse.  L+S+M.  Cataphracts. 3+ save.

250
8x  Horse archers 30
Hand weapon, Bow, throwing spears, L+M.  Nomad Light Cavalry. 6+ save.

205
10x  Light Cavalry 20
Hand weapon, Javelins and shield.  L.  Skirmishers and Feigned Flight. 5+ save.

150
2x Scythed Chariot 75
Driver has heavy armor and improvised weapon. Each model has a unit strength of 3.
Heavy Chariot causes D6+2 impact hits S5. 4+ save.

INFANTRY (1197 + 606 + 495 + 342 + 382 + 168 + 72 + 195 = 3457)
399
x3 @ x24 Pontic Phalanx 16
Hand weapon, pike and shield, light armor (+2).  L+S+M. Trained Phalanx. 5+ save.

303
x2 @ x24 Greek Militia 12
Hand weapon, Thrusting Spear, light armor, shield. L+M+S. Levy. 5+ save.

495
x48 Levy Phalanx 10
Hand weapon, pike and shield, light armor.  L+S+M. Phalanx Levy. 5+ save.

171
x2 @ x12  Thorakitai 13
Hand weapon, javelins, thrusting spear and shield, light armor. L+S+M.  Light Infantry. 5+ save.

191
x2 @ x16 Thureophoroi 11
Hand weapon, javelins, thrusting spear and shield. L+S+M.  Light Infantry. 6+ save.

168
x24 Levy Archers 7
Hand weapon and bow. Levy.

72
x12 Skirmisher Archers 6
Hand Weapons, bow. Skirmishers.

195
x3 @ x12 Skirmisher Javelinmen 5
Hand Weapons, Javelins and buckler. L.  Skirmishers. 6+ save.

[Tim Haslam]

We’ll I played a Phyric army on Wednesday, with my Pontic force.
It was a very close game, but better dice throwing by me seemed to eventually win the day. I was impressed how the imitation legionaries held on against the phalanx.
Plus one of my scythed chariots managed to hit the silver shields and wipe out a whole third of the unit! A major advantage in the following combats.

That being said, like many generals of the day, I’m not convinced scythed chariots are the way to go! Lol!

I may use my figures and try them as a Twilight Of Greece force.
I can add my nutty Galation warband to that.

[Jjonas]

Pyrrhic should allow Galatians (if your leave the Italian allies behind )

Galatians were ubiquitous mercenaries in Greece until wiped out in 218 BC. In the East they were at Raphia with Ptolemy and common troops in the Seleucid army until after Magnesia. They are core troops in many Hellenistic lists.

Large shield and light armor can beat phalanxes in WAB2, the loss of models in the back ranks fools the army builder's. 6x4 is still better, but the game economic leads one into thinking that 8x3 is where it's at.