Looking for advice on starting

[Bellerophon]

Hi,

I have played WW2 naval and air, but know very little about ground. I'm thinking of doing Brits in North Africa, opposite my friend who will do Afrika Korps. 15mm. I think we're leaning towards Fireball Forward or Crossfire.

Where do I get figures? What manufacturers are best? What units/vehicles/men should I buy to start?

As a longtime ancients guy, it's weird to come totally blind into a period.

[fred]

Welcome to WWII - be warned its big!

I fairly recently went with 15mm Western Desert British (not entirely sure why as I already had big forces in 10mm, and a platoon or so in 28mm)!

What I was most surprised at in 15mm was the lack of breadth from any single manufacturer and end-up shopping around a bit.

Manufacturers
Plastic Solider Company - really good kits, lots of options, their 25pdr kit is excellent. Not a huge range of early war stuff

Forged in Battle - I went here for my infantry, nice castings

Battleground / Flames of War - bit surprised at lack of options here, but I think they flex their releases around what books they are publishing, and from adverts I’ve seen may be more available. Tends to be somewhat expensive, wasn’t a huge fan of their figures.

Peter Pig - lots of unusual stuff available

Zvesda - nice simple plastic kits - not sure on current availability

[has.been]

For the vehicles look also at the 3D printed stuff, lots out there.
Peter Pig are very good, but so are a lot of the others.

[Major_Gilbear]

Welcome to WWII - be warned its big!

Yes indeed! 

Plastic Solider Company
Forged in Battle
Battleground / Flames of War
Zvesda

Yep, these are the ones I went to as well.

Forged in Battle do great Platoon sets, and their towed guns are generally good too. You will be a bit light on any anything other than troopers with rifles though, and I found their HMGs are very so-so.

Battleground / Flames of War do have a modestly decent range of units, and these generally compliment and match the Forged in Battle range very well indeed. Do note that the infantry are a big bigger though (even compared to their plastic infantry ranges) as they are made in a flexible resin.

Plastic Soldier was useful for early model Cruiser tanks and light vehicles. On the whole, whilst I do like their infantry and towed guns, I find them a bit small/delicate/fiddly to use as gaming prices and to fit in with other manufacturers' infantry and guns.

Zvezda tanks are... Mode like Kinder Egg snap-fit kits than "proper" wargaming models. There's nothing wrong with them to put on the table, and they are undeniably cheap to buy. However, the tracks on all the kits are very bland and toy-like, and many of the details (including the weapons) are very true-scale which makes them excessively delicate at 15mm. If you don't mind replacing the guns with suitable diameters of wire or brass rod though, they become much more durable.

Besides these, and Peter Pig mentioned above, you may want to look at Old Glory and Skytrex too. I don't have personal experience of these three manufacturers however, so I'll let other people pass comment on them.

You also ask which vehicles to start with, so I would suggest that these are probably considered quite "classic" British tanks for the theatre:

# Infantry Tank mkII "Matilda"
# Infantry Tank mkIII "Valentine" mkI or mkII
# A10 Cruiser mkII
# A13 Crusader mkI, mkII, or mkIII
# US Light Tank M3 "Stuart" (nicknamed the "Honey" by the British - not to be confused with the later M5 Stuart which replaced it and which was used in Normandy after DDay)
# US Medium Tank M3 "Grant" (this was the British-spec version of the M3 "Lee", although the Brits used both variants).

For other vehicles, you will have to do a bit of reading...! There was such an urgent need for vehicles in the theatre, that all sorts of vehicles were pressed into service - many were official designs, but plenty were also converted locally to fill all sorts of roles. "Portee" vehicles, which usually consisted of a flat-bed truck of some sort with a towed gun fitted onto the back were common, and indeed many of these were fitted with AA guns to provide cover for ground forces.

Finally, I assume that from your posts noting that you're looking at Fireball Forward or Crossfire, that you may have been inspired by Little Wars TV and their recent games set in Foy? If that's the case, I would consider this as a cheap starting point for your project:

1) Buy a platoon set of North Africa British infantry from Flames of War - ref BR733. This is £12.50 (ish) for about 10 bases of infantry. This is plenty to get started, and includes a selection of small mortars, AT rifles, etc as well.

2) Buy individual PSC or FoW sprues on eBay for a tank or two, and a couple of transports. Zvezda are good here as well (if you can find some), particularly for the transports. These vary in price from about £4.50-7.00 each with shipping.

3) If you want some, buy a couple of plastic towed guns from FoW as singles on eBay.

Only (1) is really essential, and if you like the games, you can buy a second set of these troops, or a pack of Forged In Battle 8th Army Infantry to augment the number of troops available to you.

With (2) and (3), it's worth noting that vehicles are very much considered by many to be the weak point in the Fireball Forward and Crossfire rulesets. That's not to say they don't work at all, or that you shouldn't get vehicles, but it's worth mentioning this since the war in North Africa did prominently feature a lot of motorised equipment throughout the conflict on both sides. By all means, get a few vehicles and try them out; but for games which are more vehicle-heavy, you might need to adapt the rules a bit to suit (very common amongst many players), or look at some different rule sets perhaps.

[Gunner Dunbar]

I’ll second command decision/skytex, I have a 15mm collection (28mm to) but I really only do 1/72-20mm, however I did invest in a sizeable European theatre German/British project using command decision infantry and PSC vehicles, the price point for the CD figures was pretty good, sculpts are nice, and they have a pretty good range, I’m not sure how they sell now, but when I bought they had small (10) and large (50) packs, I only bought a few of their vehicles, but they were good to.

[robh]

.....t's worth noting that vehicles are very much considered by many to be the weak point in the Fireball Forward and Crossfire rulesets. That's not to say they don't work at all, or that you shouldn't get vehicles, but it's worth mentioning this since the war in North Africa did prominently feature a lot of motorised equipment throughout the conflict on both sides. By all means, get a few vehicles and try them out; but for games which are more vehicle-heavy, you might need to adapt the rules a bit to suit (very common amongst many players), or look at some different rule sets perhaps.

This absolutely.

Crossfire is probably the best WW2 combat game available and is pretty much always my first recommendation for WW2 infantry games, but it is VERY specific in where it's design strength lies, it does not do large battles, vehicles or artillery well, because it is not designed to. There is a very good iO group for Crossfire that is a must if you are looking at these rules.
http://groups.io/g/Crossfire-WWII

If you want to include numbers of support weapons, tanks, aircraft etc then a ruleset like "Rapid Fire" may be a better option. Battlegroup rules also work well (but has a very expensing buy-in given the way they fragment the rules and army lists between different books). Both of these are well tested and supported and designed to play various levels of game from platoon up to company sized units without changing the rules.

[SJWi]

A few comments from me. I think you need to decide which period of the Desert war to do, as the tank fleets morphed a lot from early 1941-mid/late 1942....not to mention Tunisia and German Tiger1s. I would second PSCs Battlegroup Rules, but admit they are quite steeply priced, as you need the rulebook and the separate "theatre" book with background and army lists. However if like me you get into WW2 big time overall it isn't too big an investment. I use them for  Europe 1940, Desert, D-Day, the Ardennes, Northern Germany and the Pacific. You might want to wait until January and see if they have a sale!

I agree that 15mm is the way to go. I have a big 20mm collection but if starting afresh  would go 15mm. 10mm appeals but for some rules you need individually based figures, and for me 10mm need multi-basing.

The "Command Decision" models are very nice.  Old Glory sell them in packs of three vehicles for I think £19. Skytrex are a lot more expensive but you can buy them individually.  I also like the Forged in Battle range. Their vehicle multi-packs are decently priced.

I will commit a heresy and suggest you look at something other than Desert..... 

[madman]

I played a couple games of crossfire and it really needs lots of terrain. Especially for the attacker (totally opposite to usual practice) as in order to keep advancing you need to move between areas of cover. This is one of the different things with crossfire. Maybe not suited to desert warfare. We only played infantry so no opinion on armour.

[Gunner Dunbar]

A few comments from me. I think you need to decide which period of the Desert war to do, as the tank fleets morphed a lot from early 1941-mid/late 1942....not to mention Tunisia and German Tiger1s. I would second PSCs Battlegroup Rules, but admit they are quite steeply priced, as you need the rulebook and the separate "theatre" book with background and army lists. However if like me you get into WW2 big time overall it isn't too big an investment. I use them for  Europe 1940, Desert, D-Day, the Ardennes, Northern Germany and the Pacific. You might want to wait until January and see if they have a sale!

I agree that 15mm is the way to go. I have a big 20mm collection but if starting afresh  would go 15mm. 10mm appeals but for some rules you need individually based figures, and for me 10mm need multi-basing.

The "Command Decision" models are very nice.  Old Glory sell them in packs of three vehicles for I think £19. Skytrex are a lot more expensive but you can buy them individually.  I also like the Forged in Battle range. Their vehicle multi-packs are decently priced.

I will commit a heresy and suggest you look at something other than Desert.....

Yes, the eastern front, it has everything, wide open steppe, mountain warfare, the biggest urban battle in history, the biggest tank battle in history, Russian, German and lend lease equipment, blazing summers, freezing winters, mud, a good range of allies, Romania, Hungary, Italy, and Fins, it’s got it all.     

[Cubs]

First of all - congratulations on starting with such a superb choice. It's pretty small scale by and large, so you can build up from skirmishes to battles with a variety of fun troop types and equipment. By 'British' I am assuming you mean, Britain and Commonwealth, because those nations did more than their fair share and you can't leave out such wonderful flavour!

My personal preference is the early stuff 1939-41, with shonky little armoured cars and tanks, but broadly you can divide the North Africa campaign into 39-41 (on the defensive then offensive vs Italy), then 41-42 up to Alamein (largely on the defensive vs Italy and the Africa Corps), then post-Alamein 42-43 (on the offensive vs Italy and the Africa Corps). I may be fuzzy and a bit off, but I reckon that's about right-ish. The kit got better and the armies got bigger as time went on of course (at a startling rate) so deciding what period to collect and game is important, because everything became obsolete so quickly.   

There's a ton of literature out there, but there's a book called 'The Desert War' by Alan Moorehead, which was written by a war correspondent as it was actually happened, it's my personal favourite book on the North Africa campaign and you can get in on Kindle.

15mm is a good scale as well, because Plastic Soldier and Flames of War have some lovely stuff in that scale. Have fun! 

[SJWi]

By the way if you do opt for "Desert", don't forget the Italians. Your mate with the DAK should consider some Italian armour as certainly in the period 1940-late'41 the Italian tanks were almost as good as most of the British and are a nice option to Panzer IIs/IIIs.  If you buy troops for "combined arms" gaming, the tanks can also be used for Two Fat Lardies "What a Tanker" which is a nice, fast "beer and pretzels" style tank vs tank game.     

[Major_Gilbear]

Poor Bellerophon! 

He only asked for a steer on some models for starting games with his friend, and between you all, you've suggested that he change theatres, change rulesets, change periods, and even change which forces to play! 

There's nothing wrong with the rulesets he's interested in for the games he has planned, and there's nothing wrong with some early-mid period equipment as a starting point. In truth, it's probably simpler to start there and then add more on or redirect your interest as you wish, than it is to focus too tightly on one narrow area and timeframe in a period that is all new to you anyway. The theatre of operation he's chosen is also an interesting and quite varied one, and it makes a nice change from the post-DDay Europe and Eastern Front theatres most people seem to focus on.

Yes, you will need some moderate cover (flat open desert is probably not the best starting point, but areas with buildings and/or or rocky terrain are fine), and yes it's not the best ruleset for putting emphasis on mechanised warfare options (at least, straight out of the book), but for the modest investment of £12-£20 for the figures plus whatever for the rulebook (and I'm assuming a certain level of suitable terrain that could be carried over from their Ancients games), it's a low threshold all-round to get started with.

By 'British' I am assuming you mean, Britain and Commonwealth, because those nations did more than their fair share and you can't leave out such wonderful flavour!

I nearly commented on this myself, but I don't know how available or obviously different this would be in terms of 15mm miniatures options. It's certainly not meant to do a disservice to any of the troops that served!
When I last looked a couple of years back, it seemed to me that genuinely different options were quite limited, and that most of the "differences" could be achieved largely through painting (or, I guess, through 3D printing...?). I nearly also suggested just using the FoW plastic British infantry sprues as a starting point instead of the platoon in Tropical Kit set, but I think the latter had more useful and varied weaponry in it as well as perhaps "looking the part" a bit more.

[SJWi]

Major Gilbear, I agree. Desert can be fun, and in fact I game it in 15mm. My comment  about WAT is that you can use those rules as well as whatever "combined arms" you choose. I would still contend that you need to be careful about which "period" of Desert you game. Choosing a British  1940 force with  2pdr armed A13s and other Cruisers with wafer-thin armour won't be much fun facing a 1942 DAK force with "long 50mm"  armed MkIIIs.   

[Major_Gilbear]

I would still contend that you need to be careful about which "period" of Desert you game. Choosing a British  1940 force with  2pdr armed A13s and other Cruisers with wafer-thin armour won't be much fun facing a 1942 DAK force with "long 50mm"  armed MkIIIs.

Of course; but really, that's basically also true of the other major theatres too.

[Bellerophon]

Thanks for all the replies!

I'm mainly thinking of the period of Tobruk/Operation Crusader, which I purchased the Fireball Forward Scenario Book for.

And yes, I'm very interested in Commonwealth forces beyond just brits, if I can find them!


I've ordered some FoW 8th Army infantry and am looking into some PSC stuff as well.