Rules recommendation for Shieldwall vs shieldwall armies

[LouieN]

Hello,

I am just soliciting rules opinions for shieldwall vs shieldwall games.  What rule set would you recommend for the 700-1000 period? European early medieval. 

Vikings vs Anglo Saxons
Frankish Civil Wars
East Francia rebellions
Byzantine–Bulgarian wars

Thanks

[DivisMal]

No definite recommendation here. I was looking for something similar years ago and didn’t find anything that fully satisfied me.
I did enjoy the now oop Warhammer Historical book „Shieldwall“ which, however, only has lists for your first scenario idea.

There was a very interesting shieldwall game on kickstarter ages ago, done by Daniel Mersey that could be fun. Iirc it’s name even was Shieldwall?

Many other rules, while good in themselves, fail to deliver that crunchy, slightly static feeling of shieldwall vs shieldwall battles.

[SJWi]

Hi, I think DivisMal may be referring to the "Battle Ravens" shieldwall boardgame designed by Dan Mersey which was sold by PSC but seems to have largely disappeared  from their website.  They still sell something but hard to tell what it is! Maybe they would clarify if you send them an e-mail. Dan has also written a set of tabletop rules called "The Age of Penda", being shieldwall rules for the 7th century.  Check out Wiglaf games . The rules are available from Wargames Vault for $6. I have them but haven't tried them yet.  Apart from other rules such as Simon Mc Dowell's "comitatus" or Dan's "Dux Bellorum" which cover the Late Roman/Romano-British period. "Age of Penda" are the only rules I know of specifically designed for "Dark Age Shieldwall" games, as opposed to being a Dark Age variant or addendum to other rules such as WAB.             

[Atheling]

What size armies are you thinking of LouieN?

[OB]

Andy Callan wrote two sets of rules that might be what you are looking for.  Dark Age Infantry Slog and White Steeds and Seax. Here is a link.


https://www.wfgamers.org.uk/andy-callans-articles

[DivisMal]

Hi, I think DivisMal may be referring to the "Battle Ravens" shieldwall boardgame designed by Dan Mersey which was sold by PSC but seems to have largely disappeared  from their website.  They still sell something but hard to tell what it is! Maybe they would clarify if you send them an e-mail. Dan has also written a set of tabletop rules called "The Age of Penda", being shieldwall rules for the 7th century.  Check out Wiglaf games . The rules are available from Wargames Vault for $6. I have them but haven't tried them yet.  Apart from other rules such as Simon Mc Dowell's "comitatus" or Dan's "Dux Bellorum" which cover the Late Roman/Romano-British period. "Age of Penda" are the only rules I know of specifically designed for "Dark Age Shieldwall" games, as opposed to being a Dark Age variant or addendum to other rules such as WAB.           

Yes Battle Ravens! That was the one. I had nearly backed it…
Age of Penda is very interesting, but also special. It was recently on sale, and is definitely worth a look!

[mellis1644]

Thing which come to mind, but it depends on what level of detail you are looking for.

* Peter Pig's Longship's has a big battle rules. It's not really shieldwalls focused but is focused on the period.
* Dux Brit (with the Viking extension) are an option
* Dux Bellorum (ok it's pushing the period but could work...)
* Lion Rampant (for smaller scale games especially)
* Hail Caesar - much more generic though, but would work
* ADLG - again much more generic and for bigger games only
* with a more fantasy/skirmish style SAGA might be an option for you but likely not.

Likely in the future, Clash of Spears will do a Dark Age addition to cover the period (it was in testing a year or so ago).

[Atheling]

Thing which come to mind, but it depends on what level of detail you are looking for.

* Peter Pig's Longship's has a big battle rules. It's not really shieldwalls focused but is focused on the period.
* Dux Brit (with the Viking extension) are an option
* Dux Bellorum (ok it's pushing the period but could work...)
* Lion Rampant (for smaller scale games especially)
* Hail Caesar - much more generic though, but would work
* ADLG - again much more generic and for bigger games only
* with a more fantasy/skirmish style SAGA might be an option for you but likely not.

Likely in the future, Clash of Spears will do a Dark Age addition to cover the period (it was in testing a year or so ago).

Don't forget Warhammer Ancient Battles and the Shieldwall supplement. We had a good few years of playing from that WAB supplement nearly every week at the Edinburgh Club, SESWC.

[DivisMal]

Don't forget Warhammer Ancient Battles and the Shieldwall supplement. We had a good few years of playing from that WAB supplement nearly every week at the Edinburgh Club, SESWC.

Secret fan of WAB here, too, but look at my first reply   

[Atheling]

Secret fan of WAB here, too, but look at my first reply   

Yeah, but WAB is so adaptable, with a little reading around the conflicts LouieN referenced, Vikings vs Anglo Saxons, Frankish Civil Wars, East Francia rebellions, Byzantine–Bulgarian wars it would be easy to design army lists.

Or, failing that The Fall of the West WAB supplement could be used for the Frankish Civil Wars, the Shieldwall supplement East Frankia Rebellions (just use the Carolingian the book) and Beyond the Golden Gate supplement for the Byzantine–Bulgarian wars.

Of course, this might get expensive as the supplements are going for £40-£50 on eBay and Amazon these days.

[DivisMal]

Yeah, but WAB is so adaptable, with a little reading around the conflicts LouieN referenced, Vikings vs Anglo Saxons, Frankish Civil Wars, East Francia rebellions, Byzantine–Bulgarian wars it would be easy to design army lists.

Or, failing that The Fall of the West WAB supplement could be used for the Frankish Civil Wars, the Shieldwall supplement East Frankia Rebellions (just use the Carolingian the book) and Beyond the Golden Gate supplement for the Byzantine–Bulgarian wars.

Of course, this might get expensive as the supplements are going for £40-£50 on eBay and Amazon these days.

Yeah, that’s the biggest shortcoming.

Otoh, there are many ways to get a look at the rules before buying. In the net.

And you’re right, of course, WAB allows quite a lot of versatility. In my opinion WAB Shieldwall is among the best books ever released for that system. The author makes so many nice, atmospheric and subtle changes, that it really feels different if you play Vikings from Orkney or Irish from Gwynned.

[LouieN]

Thank you for all the recommendations. 

Can you believe I actually have those WAB books.  I need to dig them up. 

[Byrthnoth]

Simon Macdowall has a free set of rules called ‘Shieldwall’, appropriately enough — it’s based on Comitatus but geared towards Northern Europe during the period you’re looking at. Probably worth going for standard Comitatus for the more cavalry-heavy conflicts though.

Stephen Patten (author of the WAB Shieldwall book) is apparently writing a set of Viking rules to go along with an upcoming Ragnarok Miniatures kickstarter. No details as of yet that I’m aware of, but hopefully it will be in the same vein as the WAB supplement.

[Athelstane57]

Making a game about two shieldwalls fighting each other interesting seemed, initially,a huge challenge. Where is the skill to come in when it is chiefly about melee, which, as per almost wargame rules, is settled by both sides rolling a lot of dice? 

The other day I was reading a really good blog site by one of the Osprey authors

http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2022/11/

who raised the same general point about melee in any period in wargames.   So the challenge is not as unique as I first thought, though it is still a challenge.

After re-reading the Battle of Maldon poem, I realised that it was my perception of a dark age melee that was wrong.  There’s an awful LOT going on in a clash of shieldwalls, maybe not a huge amount of battlefield manoeuvre, but still a lot nonetheless. 

The leader of a shieldwall would be:

trying to keep his shieldwall unbroken;
issuing  orders to his trusted lieutenants;
trying to rally his men;
urging his warriors to press forward against the enemy;
wading in himself;
taunting his opposite number;
trying to rescue fallen comrades;
dealing with a dented sword, broken spear, a smashed shield or wounds etc.

All of the above are competing for his limited time and energy.  And therein lies, what I think is, the nub of a ‘realistic’ game about Dark Age warfare -making the heroic leader and his decision making the focus. 

I've been working on such game for a while. The first iteration used cards, was too abstract and was poorly written.  The second iteration is one I am much happier with. Battles take between 45 minutes to an hour to finish and yet there is plenty of decision making about what your Dark Age hero will (would) do; rather than about which card play!

Feel free to pm me or carry on this thread if you want to hear more of my waffling!

Stephen Patten

[Atheling]

Making a game about two shieldwalls fighting each other interesting seemed, initially,a huge challenge. Where is the skill to come in when it is chiefly about melee, which, as per almost wargame rules, is settled by both sides rolling a lot of dice? 

The other day I was reading a really good blog site by one of the Osprey authors, I hope he will forgive me for forgetting his name, who raised the same general point about melee in any period in wargames.   So the challenge is not as unique as I first thought, though it is still a challenge.

After re-reading the Battle of Maldon poem, I realised that it was my perception of a dark age melee that was wrong.  There’s an awful LOT going on in a clash of shieldwalls, maybe not a huge amount of battlefield manoeuvre, but still a lot nonetheless. 

The leader of a shieldwall would be:

trying to keep his shieldwall unbroken;
issuing  orders to his trusted lieutenants;
trying to rally his men;
urging his warriors to press forward against the enemy;
wading in himself;
taunting his opposite number;
trying to rescue fallen comrades;
dealing with a dented sword, broken spear, a smashed shield or wounds etc.

All of the above are competing for his limited time and energy.  And therein lies, what I think is, the nub of a ‘realistic’ game about Dark Age warfare -making the heroic leader and his decision making the focus. 

I've been working on such game for a while. The first iteration used cards, was too abstract and was poorly written.  The second iteration is one I am much happier with. Battles take between 45 minutes to an hour to finish and yet there is plenty of decision making about what your Dark Age hero will (would) do; rather than about which card play!

Feel free to pm me or carry on this thread if you want to hear more of my waffling!

Stephen Patten

Please do start another thread- I foe one would be very interested in your ideas for new rules