Barons War - Welsh.

[Dannyboy]

Have just bought a Welsh starter force for Footsore mini’s Barons War and stumped on the issue of possible heraldry for the Welsh. Question is, where the Welsh using heraldry at this early stage? Would the Welsh leaders be dressed and armoured as Knights at this relatively early stage?

My newbie impression is that large chunks of Wales were still fighting for independence, and I wonder how readily they would embrace the idea of feudalism and heraldry?

Any input or guidance on this really appreciated, as there doesn’t seem to be a huge amount of information out there on this.

Jon

[Iain R]

Traditionally, probably not in the sense of "Normanic" heraldry as we imagine it; Wales hadn't had the same injection of Norman influence that England and Scotland had at this point. Some of the bigger characters might have adopted some elements of it (especially if they had prolonged contact with their English neighbours), and I have no doubt that any lord of consequence would have his traditional Celtic insignia associated withhim and proudly displayed on his banners, but the idea of formal "coats of arms" in the style of English and Scots knights of the same period was probably not widespread.

That said, I stand to be roundly corrected; my passing knowledge on Mediaeval Wales is only as an adjunct to my main area of interest, 13th/14th century Scotland, so I'll happily give way to someone more qualified than I.

[Dice Roller]

By the 13th century the Welsh were using heraldry just the same as the English (and Scots).
In appearance there would have been little to distinguish the Welsh, English and Scots armies.
Most miniature manufacturers produce specific 'Welsh' or 'Scots' ranges purely as a way of generating more sales rather then capturing a distinct difference.

[Dannyboy]

Thankyou for the informative pointers gents, as I say an absolute newbie to the period. Think I will be going for a muted rough and ready feudal look to my Welsh with a gentle nod to heraldry but more of a Celtic rebel look. It might not be right but will stand out against their more garish cousins on the other side of the table.

[Dice Roller]

Well, that's the other thing, of course.
We tend to paint our medievals in bright colours but the truth is they wouldn't have been - they didn't many effective mordants to fix dyes so clothes would have washed out very quickly.
That drab look is what everyone would have been wearing. It's just that the nobles would have been wearing clothes with washed out expensive colours (reds and blues) and the peasants would have been wearing washed out cheap colours (earth tones). But still washed out.
Again, they would have all looked the same.

But, as wargamers, we want a 'look' to our toy soldiers. So we paint them brightly, or we give give celtic nations swirly designs on their shield to make them different, or put them in some form of plaid.
And that's perfectly valid - we all do the same.