Battle of Harlow 1411

[Armstrong47]

Been thinking about building the forces for this battle for a while now, a)nd I was wondering, would the leaders of the Highlands/Isles army be dressed as knights,  in ( up to date, or maybe a little out of date), armour, or would they have worn chainmail and long coats?
Many thanks,
Andy

[Atheling]

I really don't have much time but there's a video on YouTube covering a display game of Harlow 1411.



And some pictures hijacked from the net too:

[Armstrong47]

Thank you very much for the info, Atheling.

[Atheling]

Thank you very much for the info, Atheling.

Sorry I can't be of more assistance.

[frank xerox]

Check Scheltrums catalogue; they did the figures for a big Harlaw demo game by the Aberdeen club a few years ago.
I would expect leaders to look like early gallowglass or rich Islemen - acorn helmets, mail/ahketon, bits of plate. But Im no expert!

[Iain R]

The Isles and West Highlands engendered a distinctive style of armour that retained a reliance on mail and cloth long after the rest of western Europe had transitioned to plate. This was for a multitude of reasons, linked to the style of warfare and conditions of the Western Seaboard of Scotland. This is what most people will envisage as "Galloglas" style (though there were distinct differences between what was seen in Ireland and Scotland).

The long mail coat, akheton and safron war shirt were the most distinctive elements, together with the tall bascinet (I'm not convinced that the overly stylised versions beloved of sculptors were common in Ireland, let alone Scotland, so I'd avoid those), with the spear probably remaining the most common polearm, supplemented by the distinctive West Highland style axe, and claimh da laimh with its downswept quilions for the gentry. Other than helmets as above, plate would most likely be restricted to things like greaves, vambraces and simple gauntlets; complex moving parts do not like salt spray.

Claymore did a nice range scupled by Paul Hicks specifically for Harlaw (which I assume you mean, rather than a town in Essex...  ) which now resides with Antediluvian Miniatures. Some very nice figures in the command packs, though I'm less enamoured with some of the others, but your mileage may vary. I'd avoid anything labled as "Galloglas" or "Irish" as it tends to be very over-stylised and based on much later depictions.

The recent Helion title "The Men of Warre" by Jenn Scott is well worth picking up, as there's very little otherwise written on anything close to the subject.

[Armstrong47]

Many thanks for the info, Iain.
Yes, Harlaw, not Harlow. I have been looking at the Antediluvian figures for the bulk of both armies, and most definitely avoiding anything labelled as "Irish".

[Iain R]

Absolutely! The Antediluvian stuff from the old Claymore Otterburn range is spot on for the Lowlanders; while some of the higher tier Scottish nobles would undoubtedly have had bang up to date white harness as done by Perry in their HYW, they'd probably be in the minority at this point, particularly amongst the combatants of Harlaw, the bulk of the Lowland gentlemen there being from the middling "parish gentry" who'd probably have been in slightly older styles from the turn of the century. Grave effigies are a good source for both sides.

There's actually a few figures amongst the "Lowland" combatants in the old Otterburn range that would make good Hielanmen, with pikes swapped out for axes and a targe or two added. I've been meaning to do something similar for my own ancestors during the Raid of Angus and other nefarious enterprises under The Wolf. Clann Donnachaidh, being a bit further east, would probably had a bit less of the influence of the Isles about them, while still standing somewhat appart from their Sassenach neighbours. The higher ranks especially are proving especially diffficult to transpose into metal from what I envisage in my mind! 

[Armstrong47]

Sorry I can't be of more assistance.

You've been extremely helpful, the pictures are great and the link for YouTube was just what I was looking for.
Once again,thank you very much.

[Armstrong47]

Check Scheltrums catalogue; they did the figures for a big Harlaw demo game by the Aberdeen club a few years ago.




I would expect leaders to look like early gallowglass or rich Islemen - acorn helmets, mail/ahketon, bits of plate. But Im no expert!

Thanks very much for the reply, frank.
It's very useful.

[Armstrong47]

Absolutely! The Antediluvian stuff from the old Claymore Otterburn range is spot on for the Lowlanders; while some of the higher tier Scottish nobles would undoubtedly have had bang up to date white harness as done by Perry in their HYW, they'd probably be in the minority at this point, particularly amongst the combatants of Harlaw, the bulk of the Lowland gentlemen there being from the middling "parish gentry" who'd probably have been in slightly older styles from the turn of the century. Grave effigies are a good source for both sides.

There's actually a few figures amongst the "Lowland" combatants in the old Otterburn range that would make good Hielanmen, with pikes swapped out for axes and a targe or two added. I've been meaning to do something similar for my own ancestors during the Raid of Angus and other nefarious enterprises under The Wolf. Clann Donnachaidh, being a bit further east, would probably had a bit less of the influence of the Isles about them, while still standing somewhat appart from their Sassenach neighbours. The higher ranks especially are proving especially diffficult to transpose into metal from what I envisage in my mind! 

I'm planning on doing Otterburn at some stage, so the Lowland force will also be used for that.
Speaking of Antediluvian Lowland Scots, I've seen a couple of posts on here basically saying that the figures labelled as "Wars of the Bruce", aren't suitable for the later 14th/early 15th centuries. To be honest I can't see much of a difference, except in the helmets, and the padded coats seem a bit longer on the "Bruce" figures.
Also,would the earlier Islemen figures be suitable for Harlaw? I'm thinking the axe armed, and unarmoured figures, not the ones with swords and shields.

[Iain R]

I'm probably one of the sources of those posts...

It's a topic of perenial discussion and a favoured crutch of wargamers, but one that irks me to no end. Yes, older kit would've remained in service for longer with those without the means or pressing need to change, however I feel wargamers take this waay too far in most cases ( "I need some Scottish mercenaries for my WoTR Lancastrians, I'll just use those Bruce guys, 'cos they were obviously all poor and backward, and time clearly stood still north of Carlisle"...). This sort of thing mainly holds for items of metal armour, which reaches a point where, for all but the most high-end stuff, changes beyond the incremental become largely academic in what it does, versus style, do you'll see older styles remain play for longer amongst the lesser nobility, particularly in periods of comparitive peace. However, when you look at the kit held by common men, they mainly went to war in the clothes they stood up in, supplemented by a small amount of wargear. The styles of clothes absolutely changed, and while a bit of a stretch is plausible (i.e. late HYW into WoTR), expecting a man from 1297 to look like on from 1411 is pushing it. People don't wear clothes hundreds of years out of date because they're poor. You don't see many folk down the buroo dressed in Edwardian evening wear or even flares and kipper ties; clothes are a way of showing ones standing and success, regardless of station. Mediaeval people were no different in wanting to appear smart and succesful in front of their peers than us today. The use of say simple dome bascinets or kettle helms would persist much later amongst poorer sections of the army because it was an item with no great utility beyond the battlefield and so would be a luxury item not bought on a whim, but could also easily be maintained for decades in good working order with minimal effort and remained an effective piece even once things like sallets became fashionable. Contrast that with something like an akheton/gambeson/padded coat, the cut of which tended to follow prevailing civilian fashions, and would probably require to be replaced more often (and thus be more in line with current fashion) because it was more susceptible to damage both on the battlefield and just from age and wear; the West Highlands are cold and damp, great-great-great-grandad's akheton from the Battle of Brander probably isn't going to be servicable by 1411 when you go off to raid Ross...

The early Islemen are a case in point. They're aimed at the 1100s, would you anticipate a townsman from London, York or Edinburgh to look the same as one of his descendants from the 1400s? The Isles are no different. The geography might result in different fashions, but they changed nevertheless. People tend to think of the medieaval Hebrides as some wild, alien landscape cut off and isolated from the rest of the world. This isn't the case; while they fiercely retained their own identity, they were well aware of the rest of Europe and vice versa; trade was maintained, men left to serve as mercenaries or clergy, and the noble families were related to the major houses of Scotland and Scandinavia. One could probably stretch said Islesmen perhaps into the early campaigns of Alexander II, but by 1411 they look hopelessly archaic, with the possible exception of the two axemen in the long mail coats, who are pretty timeless.

That said your toys, etc, etc.

[frank xerox]

This is what Im thinking - from Islay.
And for a bit of local colour, kids in Aberdeen played “Reid Harlaw” (cowboys & indians) right up till WW1

[Armstrong47]

Thank you all very much for the info and advice.
It's definitely given me plenty to think about and pointed me in the right direction.

[kadeshuk]

I expect that you should get a hold of Bludie Harlaw by Olsen.
It contains the actual contemporary accounts and then goes over all the later bolt on additions lacking in foundation. It is available on Kindle or as a hardback, also on Amazon. Like many other medieval battles, much of what appears in hobby publications about Harlaw is based on the later additions, so this book is a must if you want to recreate it, rather than the Sadler book.