Outremer Faith and Blood or back to Retinue?

[ulverston]

Hi,

I have been out of the medieval skirmish game for rather a long time, in fact my last set was Retinue! (I also had one called Lance I think) so its been a while. I had a go at Saga but as I play solo I found it just too cumbersome, indeed I tried twice, sold the first lot and then bought it all again to have a second try.

So with Wargames Atlantic tempting me to try again can I ask if anyone has tried Outremer Faith and Blood? Plastic figures for the later Crusades has been on my wish list for a long time and I never really expected them to appear so I have been caught by surprise... ambushed even.

I have watched Youtube reviews but of course the real place to find a review is here, does anyone use Outremer? I have Lion Rampant and I believe that there is a Crusade supplement? What can you Chaps recommend? I like to have a ruleset then I can organise a force and paint and collect with a goal in mind.

Thanks for any thoughts Guys your wisdom is very much appreciated.

[SJWi]

Not my cup of tea but I can tell you that the Lion Rampant Crusader States supplement is available from Wargames Vault for $12.  I think it is originally for v1 but can translate to v2. From what I know Lion Rampant has a more devoted following than Outremer.

[ulverston]

Thanks SJ, I will have a look at it. Indeed now I discover that Barons war has a supplement for the Crusades as well.

[SJWi]

Do you have Baron's War? From what I know it is a degree more complex than Lion Rampant. Might be worth seeing other people's recommendations.

[ulverston]

No, so far I have not looked at it due to the tokens etc...

[Codsticker]

I have the Crusades supplement for Lion Rampant and IMO, it's quite good, In fact could be quite useful for inspo* with other rules.

*I may have been texting with my daughter too much lately so forgive me...

[Dice Roller]

By 'Outremer' do you mean the Osprey blue book?
If so, then I have ALL the rules you have mentioned: Outremer, LR, Saga, Barons War (plus the crusades supplement).
So I can give you MY opinion on the rules.

Since you are looking at solo play I would rule out Saga. I've also tried it solo and it just isn't satisfying as a solo game. I've seen some solo play tweaks but they aren't really up to it. Shame, because Saga is probably the best of the bunch. So we'll put that one aside (unless you already have it. In which case keep it in case you ever find a partner to play with).

Outremer - is very much a skirmish game with up to a dozen models per side. It's actually a very good game! Like most of the Osprey blue books it does need a bit of fiddling with but if you are playing solo then that's not an issue. It also has a campaign element which means you warband gets experience and can improve. But just remember, it's a small game.

Lion Rampant - you can't go wrong with this. There is a Crusades supplement (remember, it's only a supplement - you still need the main rulebook!) but you can play LR without it (there are Crusades army lists included in the book). LR can sometimes be a bit vanilla, but it's easy to pick up and is...well, fun. It also plays well solo as is. You'll be looking at approx 50 models per side.

Barons' War - it sits somewhere between Saga and LR. Visually it look like LR (and Saga, for that matter) with about the same number of models. Yes, there are counters on the table, but not many (1 per unit as you activate them). A game takes a bit more planning than LR because you do have to work out a retinue, though once you have retinues worked out then you could use the same ones in subsequent games. It is also playable solo. It's not the best written rulebook (although nice to look at) or well laid out (you'll back and forth), but once you've got the hang of it it flows easily. I just wish this had taken off a bit better at our club because I like it. Like LR you'll need the main rulebook in addition to the Crusades supplement.

If I were you, looking at solo play? Then I'd plump for LR. It's the safe bet. There are lots of other players out there and it's also easy to learn so should an opponent come along you'll be good to go. It also has enough models to give a good impression and feel like you're having a fight over something important. I'd also have Outremer in my armoury, but it's quite a different game in size, scale, and scope - for the price you might as well. Like I say, I have all four and I'm glad I have because they all give different games. Having all four then, if I fancied a Crusades game, I would get out Barons War, but prepare to do the work in trying to navigate your way around the rule book. I know some just can't be bothered and pick up Lion Rampant, but if you stick with it, then...

[SJWi]

Dice Roller, I have tried all except "Outremer" and as you say that is actually a different "scale" of game to the other three. From my limited experience you have  summed them up pretty accurately.  I played Lion Rampant v1 and found it "too vanilla" for my personal tastes, but some of my mates like it. We tried Baron's War but found it a bit of a pain to navigate, and the guy running the game likes easy to read rules! I guess what sets Saga apart are the battleboards which give a different feel to the game and again take some getting used to.  I would also point out that Saga can become a pretty expensive investment with the rules, supplement and possibly dice sets. Worth it if you like them and play it a lot but something extra to think about.     

[ulverston]

Thanks very much for the pointers Chaps, Dice Roller that was really helpful. I have Lion Rampant V1 so may just purchase the Crusades supplement and give that a go. As I am playing solo I could always fiddle around and use the Bolt Action system of pulling counters from a bag... I agree with SJ that Saga can get expensive and I needed a second table to put the battle boards on! I will swerve Outremer and Barons war for now and just enjoy collecting the Wargames Atlantic plastics. What a time to be a war gamer!

[SteveBurt]

Lion Rampant works much better if you use the boasts. It can be very vanilla without them, and many people seem not to use them for some reason

[SJWi]

Ulverston, I don't think you will be disappointed with the Crusades add-on for Lion Rampant. Close to 150 pages including some useful background history, new rules, force lists and scenarios......and all currently $12.48 ( reduced from $18.73) for the PdF from Wargames Vault.     

[ulverston]

Steve, I have never used the boasts but will definatley give them a try. I wil ltry to buy a hard copy SJ as I am too old now to start using a computer or even print a pdf... Currently watching The Activation Phase on Youtube describing the Age of Crusades!

[ulverston]

I have just read that Lion Rampant can be used with fewer figures in a unit-a D12 can be used to monitor the losses... has anyone done this? Also is V2 much different to the original? I have been reading through them and they certainly seem a viable option and it would be nice to get playing quickly and use the figures I have for Saga. Any hints or tips would be much appreciated.

[Dice Roller]

V1 and v2 of LR are entirely compatible with each other.
V2 contains a lot of extras and I would say is definitely worth having. Lots of extra bits, lots of options, lots more scenarios, lots more army lists.

As for fewer figures in LR. Yes, you can. LR deals with 'strength points' rather than figures. Convention is that 1 figure is 1 strength and you remove models as damage is caused (in strength points) so it's readily apparent how many points are left by the number of models left. But you could say 1 figure is 2 strength thereby using half the number of figures. E.g. a heavy infantry unit would normally have 12 figures (1 strength each) but you could use 6 figures and say that each is 2 strength, and just use a marker to track the odd hit. Or a cavalry unit is normally 6 Strength/6 models, but instead you could make them 3 models per unit with each worth 2 strength. You get the idea. Not sure why you'd need a D12, all you need to do is mark a single hit when there's not enough to remove a model.

[ulverston]

You make a good point about the D12 Dice roller. I may experiment later in the week when I get some time off, V2 will be ordered if it plays OK for me. Thanks again for the tip regarding markers.