Cold War Europe 1986

[Essexmark]

Hi all. As per my post in the WW2 section I have come back to wargaming after a long hiatus. One of my great passions when I was playing was Cold War heating up. So I'm looking to start again using 6mm Heroics and Ros (as I live in the UK these would be better). I have chosen 1986 as it feels like a transitional period and like idea of pitching Chieftain Stillbrews against T64B with ERA. I also like the idea when I get to them of early Bradley's and early M1 abrahms.
So to my questions.
My first stab at a soviet force is a Tank Battalion of T64b's.
I worked it out at 30 tanks. Three companies of 10, each company comprised of 3 platoons of 3 tanks including one platoon command.  Is that correct?
I then thought of a Motorised Rifle Company supporting the tanks. I've worked it out at 3 platoons making up a company. With 3 BMPs per platoon. So 9 BMPs. Each BMP has 7 man squad, so 63 infantry in total. Does this sound right? Also I'm not sure on Recce. Would would be used with such a force above?
Turning to Britain. I'm going to work on a couple of squadrons. So 4 troops per squadron, 3 tanks per troop plus 2 command.  So 14 per squadron. 28 across two squadrons. Do I have this right? Then a rifle company comprising of 3 rifle platoons. 3 sections per platoon of 9 per section. So 81 infantry in 9 FV432. I think a section of troop of Scimitars (4) and then maybe some AT support but not sure
Am I on the right track with this please. Numbers, types of tanks etc?
Many thanks.
Mark

[AKULA]

Have a read through the following blog for ORBATS ... there should be a whole bunch of Sov lists on there as well

https://coldwargamer.blogspot.com/p/cold-war-central-front-british-1980s.html

https://www.battleorder.org/post/uk-80s-mech

 

[HerbertTarkel]

I have all the pdfs downloaded and saved from the old Armoured Acorn site. They have graphic TO&E for multiple versions of up to late Cold War Soviet stuff. If you pm me your email, I will send them on to you.

Edit: apparently I no longer have the files. Sorry.

[carlos marighela]

The Soviet tank battalion is right, if you are modelling a battalion from a tank regiment. The tank battalions in Motor Rifle regiments were set up as 3 X platoons of four tanks each. The MR platoon attached seems right but if you plan on doing a platoon from a Motor Rifle Battalion for 1986, you'll want to add an additional 2X BMPs at Coy HQ. These carried a support section of PM machine guns (equivalent BTR companies had a mix of machineguns and AT-5 ATGM).

Doctrinally the recce elements found at regimental level and above would be a considerable distance from the lead elements of a Tank or MRR regiment. You might come across them on the same table, if for example the recce troops were falling back along the  route of an advancing force.

The doctrinal lead recce  for an MRR advancing  would be a MR platoon with an attached tank. Some distance behind this would be the remainder of the MR Company and the rest of that detached tank platoon. Behind that, again some kms off, would be the main force of the battalion and attached supporting weapons.

British infantry platoons in either FV432 or Warrior deployed as four per platoon, three sections each in a wagon plus one for PHQ. Two more at Coy HQ.  In theory the 3 tank platoon was peacetime strength IIRC with sufficient tanks held on strength to round out to four per troop. Whether this woud actually have taken place and whether there were sufficient trained crews to man them I have no idea.

[Fred Mills]

Great subject! On the 'Fire and Fury' website, where you'll find a wealth of support for the Battlefront WWII rules, you'll find a section on 'Cold War' OOBs, which includes all the stuff you want, I think. They are archived as PDFs but a quick download of each one only takes a second. Here is the link:

https://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml#CW

[Jemima Fawr]

The Soviet tank battalion is right, if you are modelling a battalion from a tank regiment. The tank battalions in Motor Rifle regiments were set up as 3 X platoons of four tanks each. The MR platoon attached seems right but if you plan on doing a platoon from a Motor Rifle Battalion for 1986, you'll want to add an additional 2X BMPs at Coy HQ. These carried a support section of PM machine guns (equivalent BTR companies had a mix of machineguns and AT-5 ATGM).

Doctrinally the recce elements found at regimental level and above would be a considerable distance from the lead elements of a Tank or MRR regiment. You might come across them on the same table, if for example the recce troops were falling back along the  route of an advancing force.

The doctrinal lead recce  for an MRR advancing  would be a MR platoon with an attached tank. Some distance behind this would be the remainder of the MR Company and the rest of that detached tank platoon. Behind that, again some kms off, would be the main force of the battalion and attached supporting weapons.

British infantry platoons in either FV432 or Warrior deployed as four per platoon, three sections each in a wagon plus one for PHQ. Two more at Coy HQ.  In theory the 3 tank platoon was peacetime strength IIRC with sufficient tanks held on strength to round out to four per troop. Whether this woud actually have taken place and whether there were sufficient trained crews to man them I have no idea.

Wot Carlos said, although it was normally a single AT-7 in the MR (BTR) Company Machinegun Platoon, rather than AT-5 (which would usually be mounted on BRDM as a regimental asset).

There were stacks of variations on the theme though.

Re the Fire & Fury organisations; bear in mind that they're designed for a slightly higher level of representation, so 1:2 or 1:3 rather than 1:1.

[carlos marighela]

Quite right. I always get Saxhorns, Spandrels and Spigots mixed up.

[Jemima Fawr]

Quite right. I always get Saxhorns, Spandrels and Spigots mixed up.

If it's any consolation, I got Led Zeppelin mixed up with Def Leppard earlier...

[HerbertTarkel]

If it's any consolation, I got Led Zeppelin mixed up with Def Leppard earlier...

Good lord! That’s unconscionable!

[carlos marighela]

But it's a brilliant diss of Robert Plant. Kudos my man, kudos!

[sultanbev]

"If it's any consolation, I got Led Zeppelin mixed up with Def Leppard earlier... "

That's enough to give an old man a heart attack !

In the examples above by the original poster, don't forget your CHQ and Bttn HQ tanks, so a full tank battalion is 31 tanks, and a Motor Rifle Company has a single BMP-1K in the CHQ.

If you want individual Soviet divisions, this site is fabulous:
http://www.ww2.dk/new/newindex.htm
For many of the divisions, it lists total equipment for 1985 and 1989. For your 1986 timeline it is worth noting that many motor rifle regiments had mixed BMP-1 and BMP-2, and often replaced BMP-R with BMP-2. If there is a mix, usually one BMP per platoon is a BMP-2, the other two being BMP-1 or BMP-1P.
This page is a Dec 1985 summary for each division, perfect for your 1986 timeline:
http://www.ww2.dk/new/army/Equipment%201.12.85.htm

There are also many Cold War organisation lists in the MicroMark collection on the Wargames Vault:
https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/3426/MicroMark-Army-Lists

[sultanbev]

Note, from that 1985 equipment list, most T-64 equipped divisions had very few T-64B, they were mixed in with the T-64A, usually one platoon per tank battalion.

The T-64BV with ERA would have been quite rare at this point, having only come into service in Dec 1983. For my T-80s at the similar time scale I allow one ERA equipped company per regiment, so it might be similar with the T-64s.

[sultanbev]

And if anyone knows how to save an entire website, please save it,
http://www.ww2.dk/new/newindex.htm.

That one hasn't seen any activity since 2019, so it may go all of a sudden. It's a lot of pages to manually save one by one, is there a quick way of doing it?

[carlos marighela]

The T-64Bs were initially allocated as 'sniper tanks', essentially providing overwatch capability, using the Kobra missile's longer engagement range. Dribs and drabs but eventually whole companies worth. Zaloga talks about a typical mix of two T-64A armed companies and one T-64B equipped company per battalion.

AFAIK the Soviets did not mix BMP types within platoons.  Where they were mixed as part of a transition to BMP-2 (with the BMP-1s being cascaded down to lower readiness units) it was done as whole sub-units. So you might have a BMP battalion with one or two companies of one type and one or two of the other.

As for reactive armour, Kontakt 1wasn't actually approved for service until 1985*, although the trials were completed by the end of 1983. It took quite a while to roll it out and many of the tanks to be so equipped were fitted for but not with ERA, ie., the attachment points were bolted to the hulls, turret and side skirts but the bricks were not attached. While GSFG tended to get priority on upgrades it's unlikley that but a portion of their T-64 and T-80 holdings were fielding full ERA arrays in 1986.

The linked website is indeed a very useful resource. However it does need a bit of checking. There are one or two duplications and replications in some of the orbats where battalions or regiments have been swapped out or even changed their type over time and been retained as part of that formation. The Soviets not infrequently retasked/reflagged MRR and tank regiments to the other type and this occasionally shows up as a duplication. It's understandable as tracking these can be very diffcult over the 50 year time span the orbats cover.

*Zaloga. T-64 Battle Tank Osprey Publishing, 2015

[CapnJim]

Oh well. I was gonna chime in here, but what I was gonna say has already been said...

I can only reaffirm the stuff already posted (particularly the Soviet info - I got out my Army FMs on the topic from the mid-80s...).