How many of us are joining Old World?

[Hobgoblin]

Swarm - as in, treated as a swarm, not individual models. Reserved for creatures too small and/or puny to stand up one-on-one with a humanish opponent. The swarm base is given a set profile with wounds and attacks, but not the individual models. Imagine how cool it would look with Skaven scattered on 40mm bases - maybe 4, 5 or 6 models squeezed on, randomly squirming about and not ranked up. This seems perfect to me for over-sized rats acting as a pack to bring down bigger prey. But even the original models were larger in comparison to the wonderful Brett Ewins comicbook versions and, of course, they just bulked up and got bigger with each new release.

That's a really interesting idea. Oddly enough, I'm putting together a sort of ratman/Skaven army for HOTT/DBF; I'm keeping the classic Jez Goodwin Skaven individually based on MDF 20s (so they can go three, four or six to a 60 x 40mm base if require, with 'blank' scenic 20 x 20s to fill in the gaps); vertical base edges create the illusion of a solid base when they're blue-tacked down. But I'm also basing up some of the 1/72 Caesar ratmen (which are essentially Kaleb Daark-scale Skaven) as fixed hordes. Even at that scale, though, it's a bit of a struggle to get five or six onto a single 60 x 40.

Modern plastic Skaven - and their Mantic equivalents - have, as you say, got very bulky - although the latest ones are somewhat scaled down from the monopose giants!

I do think there's something magic about the 20 x 20mm square base, as it works with so many different systems. Of course, that in itself is an argument for GW to leave it behind, I imagine!

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

I guess GW rules don’t make much ado about close order and open order styles of fighting? No peltasts and Psiloi, everyone fights in the equivalent of a shield wall?

[Hobgoblin]

I guess GW rules don’t make much ado about close order and open order styles of fighting? No peltasts and Psiloi, everyone fights in the equivalent of a shield wall?

Yeah, such variations were included in the first edition, hence the 'shock troops' basing, which allowed you to pack in more figures - and thus more attacks - on a narrow frontage, or do the opposite for skirmishers. But they seem to have departed thereafter - I think those rules were gone by 2nd.

I've been basing some preslotta C15 orcs up, and it's quite easy to get them onto the 'shock' 60mm frontage (for HOTT, DBA, DBF, etc.). But that would not be true of any Citadel orcs from the 90s on, I think!

[Cubs]

Even at that scale, though, it's a bit of a struggle to get five or six onto a single 60 x 40.

Think of this - Skaven clambering over each other as rats do - so you don't even have to get them on side-by side, they could be on top of each other as well in an untidy bundle. This is where plastics come to the fore, with the ease of conversion and gluing, plus lighter models.

[Hobgoblin]

Think of this - Skaven clambering over each other as rats do - so you don't even have to get them on side-by side, they could be on top of each other as well in an untidy bundle. This is where plastics come to the fore, with the ease of conversion and gluing, plus lighter models.

Good point!

I might have a go at that with some of the old "dog-monkey" gutter runners (or are they night runners? I can never remember ...). They at least have base-free feet and open, downward-facing hands in some instances, and so could be suitably posed, perhaps. I was scoping a 'horde' base of those out a while back and was thinking I'd need to go for a 60 x 60 square for maximum space (they're quite 'horizontal'), which could look great.

Mixing up various sorts and sizes of Skaven might give a great motley look too - kind of like this old John Blanche illustration of orcs:

[Basementboy]

I'd love to see if you do attempt that kind of project- big swarm bases of skaven climbing over each other sounds like a fantastic idea. Is that a Warhammer illustration by the way, or from somewhere else? Don't think I've seen this particular Blanche before!

[Byrthnoth]

I guess GW rules don’t make much ado about close order and open order styles of fighting? No peltasts and Psiloi, everyone fights in the equivalent of a shield wall?

The formation rules in Old World seem to be a bit more detailed than I remember from WHFB -- I believe some of the formations, weapon rules and other special rules were adapted from from Warhammer Ancient Battles. There is the default close order, but also open order (still base-to-base, but more maneuverable than troops in a close order), and skirmishers (1" apart in a loose cloud, more maneuverable but less capable in combat). Units are also designated as regular or heavy infantry or light and heavy cavalry (along with the fantasy stuff like monsters), which mostly looks like it affects the number of models needed to claim a rank bonus. The combat results are also more varied, with steps in between the old 'stay and fight or flee in disarray'.

Also there are several dozen (!) special rules in the main rulebook and a good percentage of them deal with movement and maneuver. It seems like there are the bones of a mass battle game concerned with positioning, maneuver and keeping battle lines together, but apparently because of points cost balance, it's big monsters and heavy cavalry that stomp over everything else.

[Hobgoblin]

I'd love to see if you do attempt that kind of project- big swarm bases of skaven climbing over each other sounds like a fantastic idea. Is that a Warhammer illustration by the way, or from somewhere else? Don't think I've seen this particular Blanche before!

I'll be posting a whole lot of HOTT bases of various hordes and swarms soon, I hope!

That illustration was originally used (I think) for an old White Dwarf article on orcs in D&D (and maybe Runequest?) - think it was called "The Naked Orc".

I suspect it's also in Warhammer 3rd somewhere too, though it long predates that edition.

[Tactalvanic]

To be fair I think the main issue with the GW modern larger basing, is they simply are not meant to be rank and filed, but skirmished, and its trying to push those back into rank and file is not really going to work.

their dynamism is not meant for ranking up in the old world.

GW back in the day regards illustrations did re-use many of them in different publications. so a lot of the old pictures turn up in different GW/Citidel publication over the years.

[Elbows]

That's not even a new thing to GW...the re-released boxes of minis (which are mainly what, 5th-6th ed stuff?) are way too dynamic for a simple rank-n-flank game.  GW is wholly incapable of producing infantry marching or with spears resting on their shoulders, etc.  It's pretty weird for a game which is purported to be aimed at actual rank-n-flank assemblage.

Such a bizarre break between the miniature designers and the people doing the basing/rules, or some such. 

[Tactalvanic]

That's not even a new thing to GW...the re-released boxes of minis (which are mainly what, 5th-6th ed stuff?) are way too dynamic for a simple rank-n-flank game.  GW is wholly incapable of producing infantry marching or with spears resting on their shoulders, etc.  It's pretty weird for a game which is purported to be aimed at actual rank-n-flank assemblage.

Such a bizarre break between the miniature designers and the people doing the basing/rules, or some such.

True.

designed for roleplaying as individual pieces,  but sold to wargamers in bulk to try and fit in straight lines and squares

[Padrissimus]

Swarm - as in, treated as a swarm, not individual models. Reserved for creatures too small and/or puny to stand up one-on-one with a humanish opponent. The swarm base is given a set profile with wounds and attacks, but not the individual models. Imagine how cool it would look with Skaven scattered on 40mm bases - maybe 4, 5 or 6 models squeezed on, randomly squirming about and not ranked up. This seems perfect to me for over-sized rats acting as a pack to bring down bigger prey. But even the original models were larger in comparison to the wonderful Brett Ewins comicbook versions and, of course, they just bulked up and got bigger with each new release.

I know about swarm bases - I have actual swarms in my skaven and lizardman armies, as well as bat swarms in my undead. I was just saying that in a general sense, big unit skaven armies look like swarms, but not that they were in any rules sort of sense. That's why I added a silly face at the end! 

[Neldoreth]

I guess GW rules don’t make much ado about close order and open order styles of fighting? No peltasts and Psiloi, everyone fights in the equivalent of a shield wall?

There are units called 'skirmishers' which play to role or peltasts or psiloi. They can be used in similar ways depending on the specific units that are included in an army lists. There are skirmishing bowmen in the Bretonnian army, skirmishing ghouls in the vampire counts army, and there are centigors (centaur beastmen) in the beastmen that can be used like mounted skirmishers.

There are also close and open order units, which both fight in ranks, but open order units don't get the same rank bonuses and also can move faster and aren't affected in the same way by difficult terrain.

Additionally you can use small close-order units in a single model wide unit to screen in ways to prevent charges. There's a lot of tactical depth in the game.

[Pattus Magnus]

Using single model wide close order units to screen something sounds ridiculous- that is a column of march… they would just die if charged and would not stop missile troops from shooting the heck out of a unit to their rear. There are pretty solid tactical reasons why no historical generals ever used that sort of formation for combat (at least in any written account that had survived for analysis). That kind of gamey tactics is why I bailed on GW games a long time ago.

[Von Trinkenessen]

I'm sorry is it just me but I am bored with it all! Too long between destruction and resurrection ofWHFB. I have moved on doing my own thing now. Having gamed fantasy pitched battles from the Pre-Hammer days onwards am somewhat underwhelmed . The return of the Empire Gargoyle plastics leave me cold and not prepared to sell a kydney in order to afford the new pricing structure.