Cold War/Falklands War availability of night vision equipment for infantry?

[carlos marighela]

To be honest, I've never heard of any myth or trope that the British had scads of NVE. Rather the trope has always been that the Argentines had generally better kit.

I'd say that on the whole, that's probably true(ish) they probably did have access to more of the second gen scopes and goggles but neither side had very much of it, at least spread across their infantry battalions.

For their part the British Army focussed on fighting 24/7 and as ever were to prove competent at fighting night engagements. Just as well, there was no other viable option given the terrain advantage offered by the Argentine defences around Stanley.

I doubt the Argentine Army did much in the way of training for night fighting. Their previous main enemy, the civil populace of Argentina, was usually tucked up in bed of a night.

[italwars]

Rick, indeed, quite amusing to read your slouching  reactions…so, probably, thanks also to that , we can gather a further evidence (even from you) that also GB regular forces, not only SF ones,  where partially equipped with NV .. …which , in any case, seems obvious, and takes away nothing from their recognized top training , night warfare knowledge and brave behavior to carry out  full battalion s an attacks in open terrain
…said that , better equipment such as MILAN missiles, Naval gun fire support, and, contrary to Argentinians, sufficient  NV availability where the most important factors to tactically win the battles..I also read a detail, from Argentine sources, that amazed me : the short range airborne Argentine howitzers who supported the first line troops were guided by very few observers belonging to the artillery ..infantry officers were not trained to cooperate with artillery but where just trained to call fire from their battaillon or regiment mortars..and even those artillery men trained for forward observation were few ..not even one for each battery

About what Carlos rightly  tell us, concerning  the "trope" of supposed Argentine superiority of equipment, the reality  seems to confirm that ..with the only exception of boots (of which, in any case, the Argentine infantryman lamented )..The British land forces had , in general, better cloting, double allocation of LMGs, MILAN ATGMs, LAWs (many), light commando type mortars , laser aiming devices (not for rifles), NV ecc..all weapons not even known by Argentine military...even Argentine SF commandos (  coming from no more than 2 months training) had to do with smgs and , worst of that, with rifle grenades to counter M16 and M203 during  their clashes with British SF..from accounts that i read the fire power of Argentine forces could not stand that of their ennemies.

Carlos .are nt .we just talking about Falklands/Makvinas war? ..I don’t think that the civil population  of Argentina was "their main enemy" also because, if you know something of Latin America, you re probably aware that , in 1982, they totally supported the Malvinas cause (including the Monteneros  terrorists who offered and gave help to the Junta) and they still do so up today …so Argentinians have my full sympathy and total respect

[carlos marighela]

Even in Commonwealth armies, infantry platoon commanders are not the primary callers of supporting artillery, except perhaps where the platoon is detached as a fighting patrol. They are trained to do it as are their NCOs but the primary responsibility usually sits with an attached FO from the battery that is providing the supporting fire. The FO and his sig travel with company headquarters. Similarly an MFC (Mortar Fire Controller),  an NCO from the mortar platoon will be attched to each supported company to call and adjust mortar fire.

Nobody is arguing that the British Army didn't have NVE. They did but it's not like every soldier or even JNCO was kitted out with it, more ike one held within the platoon and the quality of that NVE was fairly indifferent, especially in the climactic conditions encountered. Most of the accounts I have read are peppered with descriptions of aiming at enemy muzzle flashes, which is pretty much the norm.

Your knowledge of Latin America seems somewhat er... limited old boy. There wasn't some sort of monolithic bloc of support at a popular level. Most of the Spanish speaking proffered words of support, Peru even provided some material support, most of which had no impact during the war itself. For most folk as elsewhere life went on, there were bigger issues in the 1980s. Chile meanwhile was pretty much cheering on the British, not much love lost there vis a vis Argentina and its well known that they provided material support to British intelligence gathering.

Brazil leased a pair of Bandeirante patrol aircraft to Argentina and the ditadura made some vaguely soothing noises about continental solidarity. That was it. They also hosted the diverted Black Buck 6 Vulcan crew on most hospitable terms. Brazil makes up over 50% of the population of South America. For various reasons, historical and linguistic, Brazil tends to be fairly insular. The average Brazilian gives less than a flying fuck about Argentina or most of its other neighbours for that matter. About the only time argentinos rate a mention is around the topic of football or as the butt of a joke.

By 1982, the very worst of the Junta's war on its own people was on the wane but the reality was that it was still a repressive, fascistic regime, still given to murdering and torturing its citizens. It basically launched the war to take the attention off an imploding economy. That proved to be a pretty short term success, about the lifespan of a lettuce, to use the modern metric. Argentina's combat experience before that was wholly centered on repressing internal dissent both real and imagined. They hadn't fought a war since The War of the Triple Aliance, if you leave out their genocidal campaigns on the pampas against their indigenous population or their involvement in various coups and failed coups.

By the by, when using terms like Montoneros, it pays to have a little knowledge of what such an all encompassing term suggests. Not unlike the Peronistas, who have both left and right wings and thosse were sharply divided in the 1970s to the point of lethal violence, the Montoneros had a similarly sharp internal ideological divide. Some of their supposed members had their political antecedents in fascist/ falangist parties and quite frankly, it's hard to characterise a group whose one near constant core belief was Catholic nationalism as being essentially leftist.  A few of their number were almost certainly stooges and provacateurs under the NRP. Argentine politics is a very murky pond my friend. It probably makes sense for upwards of an hour after any political act or statement is made.

There's a joke that Brazilians like to make about themselves. 'O Brasil é o país do futuro e sempre será' (Brazil, the country of the future and it always will be).  It's doubly or triply true of Argentina.

[italwars]

I was talking about full support of Argentinian  population to the cause..including from the leftist union representatives, leftist intellectuals and montoneros...you can even read , as you probably speak Spanish better than me, negative comments from former Montoneros/leftist terrorists or corrupted leftist kirtchneristas that recently critisized President Milei defeatist stance as concern Malvinas cause..and for once i cannot avoid to side with the left :-)))

[carlos marighela]

There is no doubt that the Argentine invasion was widely welcomed by the broader Argentine population, quite correct. I suspect we are of a similar vintage so I'm sure you recall the footage of the ectastic crowds in the Plaza de Republica and outside the Casa Rosada. Life was pretty dire in Argentina so the long held goal* of possessing the Malvinas was met with near universal acclaim. At last the military were doing something for the nation. Of course when it proved that the military wasn't even particularly good at its core business, all that positive energy rebounded.

Even here though I do need to provide a caveat. Unions in much of mid to late 20th C Latin America fell into two broad camps. There were officially sanctioned labour unions, often merely organs of the state. Some of these existed before the then current dictatorships. In both Brazil and Argentina there were co-opted labour unions associated with the Vargas and first Peron regimes respectively. Both leaders were essentially populist right wingers. Most of the genuinely leftist union leaders were in prison, on the run or disappeared. I have friends and colleagues who lived through that. Oddly enough there are the occasional vestigal rumps to be found of the official unions still in existence, so sometimes it's wise to mind your P's & Q's when calling someone comrade. 

If you ever feel like travelling down the rabbit hole of South American labour relations, have a look at the very unhealthy relationship that companies like Ford and Volkswagen entered into with the military regimes. They supplied lists of 'leftists', the military arrested union 'troublemakers' and then Ford and VW sold their vehicles on to the regimes at attractive rates having forestalled any labour unrest. The Ford Falcon, typically painted green, became the official vehicle of the death squads in Argentina.

I've travelled to Argentina on a number of occasions and to be honest, at least among younger folk I've detected no real enthusiasm for another military attempt on the Falklands. They'd accept it if it was offered on a plate but the more intelligent types realise it's just a distraction that's dragged out every time there's another economic crisis.


* In reality the claim that lays any real hold on the Argentine popular imagination dates back to the 1940s.

[italwars]

As usual very interesting informations from Carlos
I just do not, totally,  agree with the idea that the invasion of Falklands Islands and, in general, the Falklands/Malvinas cause was just a last resort way from  the Junta to distract people from economic crisis and, in general, from  the internal political situation.
Probably you ve, also  read about the fate  of some menbers (leftist peronistas) that attempted the "Operativo Condor"; That so called hijacking over Stanley Airport, which took place in  1966, was the first attempt to show attention over Malvinas cause and it was carried out by people from a totally different political side, during a totally different period and, subsequently, they even  where persecuted by the Junta during the Seventies?
Anyway i agree with all the rest you wrote.

[Jemima Fawr]

A wargaming friend, who served on the intelligence staff of 5 Bde HQ is adamant that there was very little kit available and they certainly didn't have any at 5 Bde HQ.  He's very much of the impression that the Argentines had far more.  His abiding memory is of enormous amounts of illum rounds being fired by the artillery during night attacks, which would seem to be fairly pointless if the British forces were replete with night vision kit.

Another two wargaming mates, who served with 42 RM Cdo tell me that they ate a lot of carrots on the way down...  Aside from that, they had very little; maybe one IWS per Troop, which was regarded as a very heavy waste of time and was only good to around 50 yards.  They were quickly binned after landing, primarily as it 'prevented bayonet-fighting and effective trench-clearance' (!).  Their MILAN also had no night-vision capability and they didn't even see a set of NVGs until 1987.

The difference was constant and intensive training to fight at night and effective leadership and respect at all levels.

[carlos marighela]

My own theory is the coffee. Between the late 19th century and the 1960s, millions of Italians emigrated to the US, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and Australia. There are so many people of Italian descent in Argentina it's easy to think of the country as Italy on an extended holiday, save for the food and drink.

Sadly, and to the everlasting shame of all Italians who take pride in their traditions, the only ones who understood how to make a cup of coffee all seem to have emigrated to Australia. Italian coffee culture is supremely well established in Australia. In Argentina and the US you get offered something brown, watery and invariably foul tasting if you order coffee.

In Australia, Starbucks failed as business because there was an abundance of better coffee available and an established culture of coffee drinking almost wholly due to post war Italian migrants.  In the US they needed to invent something like Starbucks because even their dire offerings best what else is on offer. In Melbourne even in the most humble abode of folk who emigrated as Calabrian peasants, you'll find a macchinetta and someone who knows how to use it. In Argentina, not so much. It's why they all drink fucking mate (something they share with the dickheads in the south of Brazil).

Now someone who can't understand the vital essence of making a decent brew at the drop of a hat, be that tea or coffee will never grasp the essentials of soldiering. 

[Jemima Fawr]

My own theory is the coffee. Between the late 19th century and the 1960s, millions of Italians emigrated to the US, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and Australia. There are so many people of Italian descent in Argentina it's easy to think of the country as Italy on an extended holiday, save for the food and drink.

Sadly, and to the everlasting shame of all Italians who take pride in their traditions, the only ones who understood how to make a cup of coffee all seem to have emigrated to Australia. Italian coffee culture is supremely well established in Australia. In Argentina and the US you get offered something brown, watery and invariably foul tasting if you order coffee.

In Australia, Starbucks failed as business because there was an abundance of better coffee available and an established culture of coffee drinking almost wholly due to post war Italian migrants.  In the US they needed to invent something like Starbucks because even their dire offerings best what else is on offer. In Melbourne even in the most humble abode of folk who emigrated as Calabrian peasants, you'll find a macchinetta and someone who knows how to use it. In Argentina, not so much. It's why they all drink fucking mate (something they share with the dickheads in the south of Brazil).

Now someone who can't understand the vital essence of making a decent brew at the drop of a hat, be that tea or coffee will never grasp the essentials of soldiering. 

Then how do you explain compo coffee...? 

[carlos marighela]

I try not to, although I always understood ration pack coffee to be the floor sweepings of Maxwell House. Most thrifty.

There were more troubling things to contemplate in ration packs anyway, like the 'will not dissolve even under nuclear fission' mashed potato/wallpaper mix. Turned out the equally baffling tube of grease known as 'butter concentrate', usually ditched upon issue, was the vital emulsifying ingredient.

[italwars]

As Italian and  from the South , where coffee time is something to be taken  very seriously , and to be honest, i must say  that when I travelled abroad ..the worst ever coffee i was treated with was in France  ..really something comparable to dirty water..even their caffé au lait is something better to avoid
on the other hand i was absolutely amazed that  I was treated with acceptable and even  absolutly good coffee in UK and with very good cappuccino which is even more difficult to prepare properly.


I agree that  their horrible mate drink is something shocking ..probably worst  than their invasion of Falklands , right wing ideology ecc ..

Argentinians , after the war, were enraged to see a picture  , from the British press,  of an Argentinian soldier drinking hot “mate”from  his traditional   “ bombilla “ (metal straw) and gourd , cause the original caption , probably from  the sun or other similar media , once translated in Spanish , said “ Miserable soldado argentino muere de frío tomando agua de un coco”. ..in practice depicting the average Argentinian soldier as a stereotyped Indio who could nt afford to separate himself , even in the antartic , from his exotic, tropical favored coconut  …I suppose you may  agree with the fact that was certainly not the best way from the British to make new friends   

[Ultravanillasmurf]

I try not to, although I always understood ration pack coffee to be the floor sweepings of Maxwell House. Most thrifty.

There were more troubling things to contemplate in ration packs anyway, like the 'will not dissolve even under nuclear fission' mashed potato/wallpaper mix. Turned out the equally baffling tube of grease known as 'butter concentrate', usually ditched upon issue, was the vital emulsifying ingredient.

Cue the Cabury Emwsh robots....