cold war french : CE camo scheme on vehicles

[Jemima Fawr]

I think a spot of confusion has arisen at this point. I quite agree about the bright green in the three colour scheme. I painted a number of VABs and VBLs a while ago.

I was referring the olive green vert armée that preceded that scheme. While the camera sometimes lies and a combination of the vaguaries of colour photography, weathering etc, can show a range of greens from greyish, through solid green to a brownish hue, the associated RAL number is for a definite olive green.

LAF isn't playing the game for me photo posting wise but if you scroll down about halfway you'll see a range of French vehicles participating in the annual Allied Forces Parade in West Berlin. This is from around 1981/82. The parade photos show clean vehicles and are well lit and in natural sunshine, so make a useful reference. The colour on all is pretty much like the old US OD. Actually, you can compare and contrast with US tanks shown on that same parade. The US Berlin Brigade clearly went in for a lot more bull than it's allies as they oiled the surface, making theirs look darker and shinier (the US Berlin Brigade was still using plain OD on all its vehicles).

https://www.milinfo.org/ffa

Gotcha.  Ah yes, for that colour, just look at a fresh cowpat and use that as a colour-swatch.

Or even as the paint...

[Rick]

A couple of points I'd noticed when researching the German, Dutch and Belgian 3-colour NATO camouflage is that the countries all agreed very quickly around 1984-6 to implement the colour scheme immediately, then spent the next 14+ years slowly doing just that. The Americans were quickest, with a lot of new vehicles being sprayed in a factory finish MERDC before being issued to units (and it was VERY noticeable which units had got factory finished and which had been done by the motor pool) the Germans were next, as they were bringing new vehicles out at the same time, with other countries doing it bit by bit over many years. Except for Belgium - they had decided to implement the camo and they did; they put it on all the new vehicles that replaced their older vehicles somewhere around 2005 or so.
In addition, the older NATO Green or NATO Olive Drab that was replaced by the 3-colour camo was a slightly darker, slightly more brown OD than you usually see - get some really good photo's with a good colour balance on them and you'll see it.
Thirdly, vehicles on parade look a different shade to vehicles in the field - that's because they've been polished with a car polish that alters the tone slightly (as well as making it gleam with a high shine) - this is noticeable on vehicles in WW2 displays onwards, where the colour is very different to what would have been on them originally.
Lastly - all this should serve to show you that everyone has their own take on this and whatever you do will be perfectly correct, there are always precedents and exeptions.

[carlos marighela]

A couple of points I'd noticed when researching the German, Dutch and Belgian 3-colour NATO camouflage is that the countries all agreed very quickly around 1984-6 to implement the colour scheme immediately, then spent the next 14+ years slowly doing just that. The Americans were quickest, with a lot of new vehicles being sprayed in a factory finish MERDC before being issued to units (and it was VERY noticeable which units had got factory finished and which had been done by the motor pool) the Germans were next, as they were bringing new vehicles out at the same time, with other countries doing it bit by bit over many years. Except for Belgium - they had decided to implement the camo and they did; they put it on all the new vehicles that replaced their older vehicles somewhere around 2005 or so.
In addition, the older NATO Green or NATO Olive Drab that was replaced by the 3-colour camo was a slightly darker, slightly more brown OD than you usually see - get some really good photo's with a good colour balance on them and you'll see it.
Thirdly, vehicles on parade look a different shade to vehicles in the field - that's because they've been polished with a car polish that alters the tone slightly (as well as making it gleam with a high shine) - this is noticeable on vehicles in WW2 displays onwards, where the colour is very different to what would have been on them originally.
Lastly - all this should serve to show you that everyone has their own take on this and whatever you do will be perfectly correct, there are always precedents and exeptions.

1) MERDC is not the same as the three colour NATO pattern, it's a scheme that dates to the 1970s and used a different array of colours. By the by' there were national variations to the supposedly standard three colour pattern when it was eventually implemented.

2) There was no 'NATO Olive drab'. Each army use more or less its own base colour, prior to the adoption of the three colour scheme. West Germany had gelboliv, France vert armée etc, etc.  All with different RAL or FS numbers. For new equipment rolling off the factory floor in the US, the base colour wasn't even OD, it was Forest Green, which as the name suggests, had a distinctly greenish hue. The US Berlin Brigade was almost unique in the US Army in Germany by sticking with the older OD scheme right up until the end of the 1980s. They did do a one off experiment painting an M60A3 in a rouugh copy of the famous British Berlin Brigade scheme and kit that arrived in the early 90s prior to disbandment was in the NATO scheme.

3) Anyone looking at the photos of the Allied Parade can see that the French AFV are quite matte. They haven't been bulled, merely washed. The only hint of shine is on the B vehicles, the Unimogs and the VW. Compare and contrast with the shine on the US M60s, M109s and M728s appearing in the same parade.  I've seen other photos of US vehicles in other Allied Parades and know from the commentary that prior to the parade they were heavily bulled and had oil applied to make them shine. As the ad says 'Should have gone to Spec savers'. 

Edited for typos.

[Jemima Fawr]

Further to Carlos' post, from 1973, everyone in USAREUR was ordered to use the totally gopping MASSTER scheme of sand, red brown, olive green and black.  MERDC then replaced MASSTER in the late 70s, but there was also a 'pixellated' version of MERDC called 'DUALTEX' that was trialled by 2nd Armored Cavalry Regt during REFORGER '80.

MERDC was discontinued in 1984, just as Abrams and Bradley began to be delivered, so those vehicles appeared in Germany for a time just painted the plain base Forest Green colour, while they waited for the decision to be made over the new camouflage scheme.  Only some US-based Abrams and Bradleys ever seem to have received MERDC and then only in the 'Summer Verdant' scheme, with two-tone green and no brown.  USAREUR vehicles were almost always painted in 'Winter Verdant' scheme, with 'Field Drab' brown replacing the light green of the 'Summer Verdant' scheme generally used in continental USA.

The Berlin Brigade used plain Forest Green throughout and as Carlos says, they were oiled got parade (Johnson's Baby Oil, according to one wargaming veteran of the unit).

[carlos marighela]

I think the only M1s and Bradleys that got the MERDC treatment were from the Texas based 2nd Armoured Division. There was at least one Bradley painted up in the cold weather snow version when they deployed it to Alaska for cold weather trials according to Steven Zaloga's Osprey on the Bradley.

I quite like the look of Dual-Tex but it would be an absolute pig to paint on models. A single Berlin Brigade Chieftain drove me to the edge of insanity.

[sundayhero]

Thank you all for these informations. I will paint my afv in OD, according to the pictures here :

https://www.milinfo.org/ffa

[Rick]

1) MERDC is not the same as the three colour NATO pattern, it's a scheme that dates to the 1970s and used a different array of colours. By the by' there were national variations to the supposedly standard three colour pattern when it was eventually implemented.

2) There was no 'NATO Olive drab'. Each army use more or less its own base colour, prior to the adoption of the three colour scheme. West Germany had gelboliv, France vert armée etc, etc.  All with different RAL or FS numbers. For new equipment rolling off the factory floor in the US, the base colour wasn't even OD, it was Forest Green, which as the name suggests, had a distinctly greenish hue. The US Berlin Brigade was almost unique in the US Army in Germany by sticking with the older OD scheme right up until the end of the 1980s. They did do a one off experiment painting an M60A3 in a rouugh copy of the famous British Berlin Brigade scheme and kit that arrived in the early 90s prior to disbandment was in the NATO scheme.

3) Anyone looking at the photos of the Allied Parade can see that the French AFV are quite matte. They haven't been bulled, merely washed. The only hint of shine is on the B vehicles, the Unimogs and the VW. Compare and contrast with the shine on the US M60s, M109s and M728s appearing in the same parade.  I've seen other photos of US vehicles in other Allied Parades and know from the commentary that prior to the parade they were heavily bulled and had oil applied to make them shine. As the ad says 'Should have gone to Spec savers'. 

Edited for typos.

Carlos - perhaps you should have gone to specsavers instead, as you completely failed to see my point, at the beginning of my post, where I mentioned that this was in researching German, Dutch and Belgian, not French (although it might have some passing relevance).
I never, at any point, said MERDC was the same as NATO 3 colour camo, please point out where I did, if you'd be so kind.
It's amusing when you see a discussion, on other forums, of 'NATO Olive Drab which, despite not being officially recognised, was an almost identical colour applied to (at least) the German, Dutch and Belgian vehicles.
My point about vehicles on parade (or on display) is a valid one, albeit a generalised one rather than about one specific Allied parade that I hadn't seen, so your comment is rather superfluous don't you think.
As always, a pleasure to swap comments with a most erudite and educated gentleman.

[Jemima Fawr]

I think the only M1s and Bradleys that got the MERDC treatment were from the Texas based 2nd Armoured Division. There was at least one Bradley painted up in the cold weather snow version when they deployed it to Alaska for cold weather trials according to Steven Zaloga's Osprey on the Bradley.

I quite like the look of Dual-Tex but it would be an absolute pig to paint on models. A single Berlin Brigade Chieftain drove me to the edge of insanity.

There are also photos of Bradleys painted in a VERY rough, whitewashed version of the 'Snowy Forest' scheme (white patches where the Field Drab would be in 'Winter Verdant') during a winter ex in Germany.

[Jemima Fawr]

Carlos - perhaps you should have gone to specsavers instead, as you completely failed to see my point, at the beginning of my post, where I mentioned that this was in researching German, Dutch and Belgian, not French (although it might have some passing relevance).
I never, at any point, said MERDC was the same as NATO 3 colour camo, please point out where I did, if you'd be so kind.
It's amusing when you see a discussion, on other forums, of 'NATO Olive Drab which, despite not being officially recognised, was an almost identical colour applied to (at least) the German, Dutch and Belgian vehicles.
My point about vehicles on parade (or on display) is a valid one, albeit a generalised one rather than about one specific Allied parade that I hadn't seen, so your comment is rather superfluous don't you think.
As always, a pleasure to swap comments with a most erudite and educated gentleman.

Missing the point is normally my speciality... 

[Rick]

We all do it from time to time, I'm just as guilty of that as anyone. Carlos made some valid points, we both did (I think), so all good.

[carlos marighela]

We could have had Mike. We could have had Neil. We even might have had Vyvian. As luck would have it.........

[Rick]

We could have had Mike. We could have had Neil. We even might have had Vyvian. As luck would have it.........

AHA, ahahaha. I'll take it - I get to be Lord Flasheart! 

[bluewillow]

I have two French wargaming mates who served in armour, orders were in 87 to move to the three colour nato. However one in the engineers still had green until 1998.

I will ask if I can get some pictures

Cheers
Matt