A question about varnish and its odd interactions with certain miniatures

[Hobgoblin]

I've been having some weird problems with gloss varnish recently. Because my miniatures get a lot of rough handling, I've always been keen to give them a coat of gloss varnish, followed up by a matt coat if the glossiness is too much (sometimes it looks OK, I find).

In the last year or two, I started having problems with Vallejo gloss varnish (brushed on): it essentially didn't dry on some figures, remaining tacky for ages if not permanently. This was despite plenty of shaking, etc.  So I switched to Winsor and Newton Galleria, on the basis of internet recommendations, and initially got good results.

But now I find the same problem resurfacing, and with more annoying elements besides. One is that the varnish has started to lift inks and even paint from figures (the other day, a coat of varnish pulled up all the highlights I'd done that evening, though they were long touch dry and simply done in Vallejo acrylics). Another is the gloss apparently negating any subsequent matt coats, so that they stay just as glossy.

I've noticed that the tackiness problem is much worse on plastic figures. I recently varnished a batch of metal and plastic figures; the varnish was touch dry on most (but not all) of the metal figures fairly quickly whereas the plastic ones stayed tacky (and may still be). Does anyone know why that would be? Or why the very same batch of varnish, brushed on at the same time, would stay tacky on one metal figure while drying quickly on others?

I'm also vaguely wondering if the undercoat (Pebeo black acrylic gesso) could be something to do with it - simply because Vallejo varnish seemed to work fine in the past with figures that I'd spray-undercoated white. But I'm wondering what the mechanism would be if it is the undercoat causing problems.

Any pointers on what's going on would be much appreciated!

[Michi]

I experienced tacky miniatures particularly on plastic miniatures, no matter if they were gloss varnished or matt coated. They may stay proper after varnishing for a while, but could turn glossy and tacky after years. I think this depends on softening agents in the plastic. I had it with metal miniatures too, if they were intensely handled with sweaty fingers. I've not found a durable solution yet. 

[Hobgoblin]

Interesting. It's weird; I have quite a few (metal) miniatures varnished in the 80s that are still fine today, and I don't recall anything every going wrong with varnishes back then (I only used gloss, pretty much; it's mellowed over the years to a nice satin).

It's the randomness that's so perplexing: I have loads of plastic miniatures that I varnished with Vallejo gloss about 10 years ago, and they're all free of tackiness.

[Tactalvanic]

I use Vallejo Matt and gloss varnish, on both standard plastic and metal miniatures without issue - but have not bought new for a few years now, as I have some stock left.

Vallejo are redoing a lot of their colours and did they not recently change ownership or at least majority ownership?

So maybe a change in ingredients for newer versions?

I have used for years black, and now white as well = acrylic gesso without issues. excepting.

polyurethane miniatures, and the reaper bones stuff, when varnished with any "normal" varnish, some of those stayed so sticky you could lift them with your hand just by pressing on them. paint stayed on but tacky, never stopped.

I read something else and got a bottle of Vallejo polyurethane varnish and added it to my collection - now any polyurethane miniatures get that varnish, any that seem tacky, get that varnish - it "cured" all my bones and other's issue - those that were tacky, sealed and tackless.

That aside, I do wonder if they have change the mix, not just Vallejo for something else that's reactive.

[Hobgoblin]

I use Vallejo Matt and gloss varnish, on both standard plastic and metal miniatures without issue - but have not bought new for a few years now, as I have some stock left.

Vallejo are redoing a lot of their colours and did they not recently change ownership or at least majority ownership?

So maybe a change in ingredients for newer versions?

Ah - that could well be it.

I have used for years black, and now white as well = acrylic gesso without issues. excepting.

polyurethane miniatures, and the reaper bones stuff, when varnished with any "normal" varnish, some of those stayed so sticky you could lift them with your hand just by pressing on them. paint stayed on but tacky, never stopped.

I read something else and got a bottle of Vallejo polyurethane varnish and added it to my collection - now any polyurethane miniatures get that varnish, any that seem tacky, get that varnish - it "cured" all my bones and other's issue - those that were tacky, sealed and tackless.

Ah - that's great knowledge! Thanks - will pick some up tomorrow!

Actually, now I think about it, I suspect that my old 80s figures were varnished with Humbrol or something similar, rather than an acrylic varnish.

[mikedemana]

I have had Vallejo matte varnish lift off highlights before, too. Luckily, the tackiness problem has not happened to me.

I do have to admit I try to use a spray varnish rather than brush-on, usually. That becomes problematic though in high humidity. We're in a two week spout of high humidity that shows no signs of letting up. It is annoying to have figures all painted and flocked, but not "finished" yet. I even tried some brush-on Liquitex Matte Varnish, but it still has a slight sheen. I prefer completely matte figures, barring anything metallic, of course!

Mike Demana

[Hobgoblin]

I have had Vallejo matte varnish lift off highlights before, too.

Glad to know it's not just me! It was so odd: the paint was definitely dry - and as it was used for highlights on scales - it was in tiny quantities too, so all the drier for it.

[modelwarrior]

What exactly is Polyurathane varnish ? Is that the permanent stuff ?

[Tactalvanic]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Acrylicos-Vallejo-Varnish-Matte-Polyurethane/dp/B00BATAAVO/ref=asc_df_B00BATAAVO?mcid=771fff09a6643b9a9d5b4b8273615206&hvocijid=18104370573567881340-B00BATAAVO-&hvexpln=74&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=696285193871&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=18104370573567881340&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006810&hvtargid=pla-2281435177578&psc=1&gad_source=1


I hate these modern weblinks - far to long.

But yes its waterbased polyurethane varnish - permanent.

Also notice its now labelled Artist varnish..

I am about a halfway into the current 2017 version I have.

[JollyBob]

I've never had any figures remain tacky after varnishing, but I have experienced the issue you have with inks and paints somehow "reactivating".

In my case, it weas particularly noticeable on heavily pigmented colours like deep reds, blues and greens. The gloss/sealer coat would go on fine, dry thoroughly and create a lovely shiny shell, but as soon as I applied a brush-on matt top-coat the colours would start to lift and occasionally smear through the sealing coat...

I'm still not sure what caused it as it seemed to be a temporary issue, maybe just a dodgy bottle of matt, but I asked for advice here on LAF (several years ago now) and was met with baffled silence. 

[Hobgoblin]

I've never had any figures remain tacky after varnishing, but I have experienced the issue you have with inks and paints somehow "reactivating".

In my case, it weas particularly noticeable on heavily pigmented colours like deep reds, blues and greens. The gloss/sealer coat would go on fine, dry thoroughly and create a lovely shiny shell, but as soon as I applied a brush-on matt top-coat the colours would start to lift and occasionally smear through the sealing coat...

Wow - that's even weirder than what I've been getting! I wonder if it's something specific to acrylic varnishes.

I'm also wondering if the contrast I'm finding between now and decades ago is because when, as a kid, I was using non-acrylic varnishes, I probably did miniatures in large batches because of the clean-up hassles (turps, etc.). So perhaps most things had just been drier for longer by the time they got varnished.

[fred]

Certainly leaving stuff to dry a bit longer (1-2 days) is no bad thing.

But I have seen brush on Vallejo varnish lift some of the highlights or washes from a figure.

I think old school figures painted in enamels are a different thing entirely from a paint behaviour perspective.

[Bloggard]

In my case, it weas particularly noticeable on heavily pigmented colours like deep reds, blues and greens. The gloss/sealer coat would go on fine, dry thoroughly and create a lovely shiny shell, but as soon as I applied a brush-on matt top-coat the colours would start to lift and occasionally smear through the sealing coat...

blimey - it's still reactivating after an apparently successful application of gloss sealer ... ?? ! Abandon hope all ye who ... etc !  [oh, hold on, you say it was a temporary problem some yrs ago ... the plot thickens ...  ]


just encountered something similar - although apparently further complicated in my case by it pertaining 'only' to AP speedpaint 2.0:

I've been painting a batch of metal ECW with a wide array of speed/contrast paints, and have just begun varnishing them (brush on) after a week of drying time.
All 3 I've tried (testors topcote / vallejo polyurethane matt and W&N artists matt varnish; so two of them not acrylic varnishes) have agitated anywhere with AP speedpaint present.

The last of the three has been best - very little effect I've noticed thus far, and with careful application I think I can live with it ... but was assuming it was an AP thing - and the second iteration Speedpaint is not in fact as proof against reactivation as claimed ... but reading all the testimony here now has me unsure what's going on.

I would say that I've not noticed any problem with the Citadel contrast paints- so to some degree it must be the paint, rather than the varnishes ... ? 

* to clarify: 4 paint brands are being used: AP, Citadel, GSW (dipping inks) and Vallejo VX 'express' paints. I think it's only AP 2.0 that's been lifting ...

[Rick]

Long ago I used some Tamiya gloss varnish that, as I brushed it on, peeled off layers of paint on metal miniatures - I stopped using it immediately and moved over to GW 'Ardcoat which has been ok except for some (not all) Reaper bones white figures being sticky long after painting. Thanks for the tip about the Vallejo polyurethane varnish - I'll have to get some.

[Freddy]

I never use Vallejo products as I have bad experiences with them, but I had two cases of the tackiness problem, and neither of them with their stuff:
-home resin cast figures tend to ,,sweat" off the paint (any, not just vanish) due to the not properly blanced mix of resin components. In this case nothing helps, target the dustbin.
-FIMO sculpts tend to do the same- FIMO is just like this, not a bug but a feature if you like There is a special FIMO basecoat, basically a lacquer you have to apply before any other coat of paint, it ends the problem and it is safe to paint onto it.