How big are Warmaster ogres, and how many go on a base (+ troll considerations)?

[Hobgoblin]

I've been drawn back into smaller scales by the prospect of gaming in the office (a post-work session of SOBH was a blast yesterday). I've been painting up some 15mm Hordes of the Things armies, which has been great fun and is (slowly!) eating up the vast mound of 15mm stuff I've acquired over the years.

Anyway, the 15mm excursion has also led me to a box of 10mm treasures, including a few original Warmaster figures - enough for a full regiment of orcs and one of boar riders. Gibby very kindly sent me the Warmaster rules a few years back, and I've decided to give them a go.

One 'synergy' with the 15mm project could be ogres. I've got a few 40 x 20 bases of Battle Valor and Blood Dawn orcs on the go; they're nicely versatile figures that are big enough to use as goblins in 1/72 and even 28mm. But it occurred to me, too, that they're probably about the right size and stature to act as ogres in Warmaster or Warmaster Revolution. The chunky BV and BD wolf/boar riders fill out a 20/40 base quite comfortably, so three of them would work as a regiment of rhinox riders, I think.

But looking at pictures of Warmaster ogres online, I'm curious about their size and how many fit onto a 40 x 20 base. From what I can see, they seem to often be based in fours (rather oddly, with the second rank right behind the first). That suggests that they're actually smaller than the BV/BD orcs; I can get just get three BV orcs onto a base, and sometimes only two of the BD ones.

I know the number of figures on the base doesn't matter, and I think the BD/BV orcs will look the part - but I'm just curious to know how the original Warmaster ogres were meant to be deployed and quite what size they are. And was the 2 x 2 basing standard?

Any pointers much appreciated!

[Hobgoblin]

I am also toying with the prospect of using Citadels original Grom (he of the Goblin Guard) as an ogre tyrant/general. After all, he was supposed to look like a "particularly ugly ogre". He might just be too big, though!

[BeneathALeadMountain]

I have some in my lead mountain (somewhere? - I think I know where they are) I’ll try and dig them out tomorrow, I think they’re probably still in the blister but I’ll happily break them out for a good cause.

Andrew
BeneathALeadMountain

[Hobgoblin]

Ah - thanks very much! Would be very interested to get their actual dimensions - but don't dent their resale value or whatever on my account!

I see that the modern 3D-printed ones seem to be three to a base.

This evening, it also occurred to me that the Battle Valor ogres will make decent Warmaster giants (and I could use two of them side by side as 'great beasts' in 15mm DBF or 'brutes' in HOTT). I also have an old Asgard half-troll lined up as a giant for an orc army - one of the ones bent right over and roaring into the faces of 10mm opponents - perfect on a 20 x 40mm base!

I'm now racking my brains to think of 20-28mm goblins that might work as 10mm trolls; I'm sure I must have some somewhere!

[BeneathALeadMountain]

No worries! Whilst I do need to sell off a goodly portion of my hoard at some point soon, my warmaster stuff is all for me (to be cut up and individually based for minihammer) so there’s no problem there. I have some modern 3D printed 10mm ogres (they look like the current GW ones) and they easily fill a 20x20mm (representing 40mm square in bighammer terms) base each.

Have you considered old snotlings as trolls in 10mm. They work quite well and there were loads of designs so you can pick and choose without much repetition. I have a 10mm giant made from 40k catachan bits, some skaven legs and Greenstuff that I’m very proud of too…

Just seen this image from my stalled blog which has an ogre on a 20mm square old epic base if that’s any use to start with…



Andrew
BeneathALeadMountain

[Citizen Sade]

I'm now racking my brains to think of 20-28mm goblins that might work as 10mm trolls; I'm sure I must have some somewhere!

Got any old Citadel AD&D Norkers in your stash? They might fit your bill if you're after something in loin cloths with primitive weapons.

[fred]

The original GW Warmaster Ogres, do indeed fit 4 to a 40x20mm base. The figures don't have a lot of depth to them, to help them rank up. And they tend to be lined up behind each other due to the width of weapons.



Don't know why that image isn't working, its at the bottom of this page http://www.kerynne.com/games/WMOrc.html

Not a great picture of some of mine - ogres in the second row. You can see with the Trolls I went for 3 a base as they are more gangly. Most of the original WM figures really crammed figures onto bases - which gave a good dense look to units, but works less well with figures not designed to be ranked up like this.

As you say figure count per base doesn't matter in WM.

Do be aware that to play WM you really want some decent sized armies - which even in 10mm is a lot of painting.

[Hobgoblin]

Thanks, all - that's very helpful!

It looks like the shallowness of the original figures is the key thing. The BV and BD orcs have a lot more depth and bulk, I think - maybe a better match for the modern 3D-printed ones. They share a chunkiness of weapon with the originals, though.

Snotlings and norkers are great suggestions for trolls - many thanks! I have some of both lurking in the lead pile - possibly enough for full units. The norkers would go two to a base (and work as some sort of ferocious warband or double up as great beasts in 15mm DBF, and I might just have six ...).

I've just been repainting the bases of some 10mm Copplestone trolls too (again, for use in 15mm): they go two to a base; I think they're probably more imposing that the original Warmaster ones - maybe quite a bit taller? And obviously very different in appearance - but as I'll be working on two or three armies that contain trolls (orcs, ogres and chaos), a bit of variety will be no bad thing.

I have a 10mm giant made from 40k catachan bits, some skaven legs and Greenstuff that I’m very proud of too…

That sounds amazing!

Do be aware that to play WM you really want some decent sized armies - which even in 10mm is a lot of painting.

Yes - I'm not envisaging getting a game in before the new year - or the Christmas holidays at the very earliest (though I do have a ton of days off to use up before then ...).

I'm thinking that the ogre army will entirely come 'free' as I paint up the 15mm HOTT stuff; I'm doing my 15mm orcs in a Tolkien-esque sallow skintone, so they should look the part as Warmaster ogres (I'll do the 10mm orcs in green).

I was initially thinking about just playing Warmaster in 15mm, basing cavalry individually on 40 x 20. But once I realised that my HOTT orcs would work as ogres, I thought it would be nice to have some properly tiny opponents for them. I've been really enjoying the batch painting in 15mm, so 10mm would be a natural extension of that (I've dabbled in the scale a little before).

The Blood Dawn orc boar riders look utterly massive in 10mm, so I think they'll be a good fit as ogre beast riders. And they can double up as 15mm beast units, as well as serving in 15mm skirmish. So there are some nice synergies.

I have some of the Copplestone 10mm orcs too; I'm thinking that they might make good old-school Old World hobgoblins: the fierce and frenzied ones rather than the sneaky, weedy ones - so 'counts as' orcs alongside their distant and green relations.

[Hobgoblin]

I have a 10mm giant made from 40k catachan bits, some skaven legs and Greenstuff that I’m very proud of too…

Just seen that giant on your blog (itself a treasure trove of inspirational painting!): it's brilliant!

It's slightly disappointing that Warmaster armies seem to be limited to one giant each; I suppose you can either disregard the limits or field multiple armies on each side to get more on the table! There are lots of great options for giants in that scale.

I had a look at the beastman army list and am thinking about using the Demonworld 15mm beastman warbands I've been painting as minotaurs; I already have six bases of those ready to go. I think they're probably appropriately sized.

[fred]

It's slightly disappointing that Warmaster armies seem to be limited to one giant each; I suppose you can either disregard the limits or field multiple armies on each side to get more on the table! There are lots of great options for giants in that scale.

For most lists is one monster per 1000 points

And if you are playing amongst friends (and especially if you are doing both sides) then the limits can just be guidelines. Giants are very unpredictable in WM (which is a pretty unpredictable system anyway) so too many could be challenging for the owning General!

[Hobgoblin]

For most lists is one monster per 1000 points

And if you are playing amongst friends (and especially if you are doing both sides) then the limits can just be guidelines. Giants are very unpredictable in WM (which is a pretty unpredictable system anyway) so too many could be challenging for the owning General!

Ah, OK - thanks! I was assuming that it was one per army. Re: your earlier comment on game size, how many points would you say is the minimum for a 'proper' game - i.e. one that brings out the full qualities of the system?

[Hobgoblin]

On trolls: it's just occurred to me that some of the smaller Asgard orcs might make good 10mm trolls. I recall that Funghy-Fipps of this forum used some of them as 15mm trolls, and they looked pretty good. The smallest ones are really tiny, but they have the advantage of looking groundwards in many cases - as if towering over even smaller foes. And a few of them have stone clubs and the like.

[Hobgoblin]

These are some of the BV orcs that I'm repurposing as (a) 40 x 20-based 15mm blades and (b) Warmaster ogres. I've started repainting the skin a more natural sallow tone. Although I had them four to a 40mm square before, they go three to a base on 40 x 20.

The figure on the right reminds me very much of a modern GW ogre - I think there's one in a very similar pose with a two-handed scimitar:

[fred]

Ah, OK - thanks! I was assuming that it was one per army. Re: your earlier comment on game size, how many points would you say is the minimum for a 'proper' game - i.e. one that brings out the full qualities of the system?

It's quite a while since I've played WM - but 1000 to 2000 pts is certainly a very playable size. The way the army lists unlock specialised units (at 1000 pt increments) means that a 1900 pt army and a 2000 pt army can be very different in composition as the 2k one unlocks double the fancy units!

[Hobgoblin]

It's quite a while since I've played WM - but 1000 to 2000 pts is certainly a very playable size. The way the army lists unlock specialised units (at 1000 pt increments) means that a 1900 pt army and a 2000 pt army can be very different in composition as the 2k one unlocks double the fancy units!

Thanks! Right, so 2,000 is probably worth aiming for. I'll bear that in mind as I go. I was planning to get lots of the BV orcs based and painted for DBF, so that should give me quite a large foundation of ogre infantry (bulls/ironguts). The cavalry units should be the easy bit (three mounted figure each).

I'm seeing this a kind of easy, no-rush project, as most of the components will be usably in HOTT and DBF as I go - even the 10mm orc infantry stands can be combined into horde units for 15mm. That's especially true of Copplestone figures, which are quite chunky.