Ambush

[Mr. Peabody]

Mr. Peabody's Canny Threshold List consisted at the start with:

A Character with Command + Ambush, a .45 and a Civil War Sabre.
Two Agents with Ambush, Double Barrelled Shotguns and Bowie Knives.

The focus developing them has been on additional Wounds and a lower Dex for the Character and lower Dex for the the Agents.
Whether or not this list really is canny, remains to be seen in the long run...

[ZenWired]

Base Agents and Civilians with Ambush as their free skill only hit on a 5+ though, so it's not like they're crack shot killing machines.

I have to agree with LidlessEye on this one. While it may seem to be to a no-brainer to load a three-man team up with Ambush when it's created, it's really only a moderate advantage. The combined drawbacks of limited range, low to moderate ranged effectiveness (based on the  Dex of the individuals concerned) and the very real possibility of being swarmed by inexpensive Lurker models - IMHO - go a long way to mitigate the perceived advantage.

Conversely, the BIG disadvantage of this tactic is that the Threshold team will be lacking other useful skills - Lieutenant comes instantly to mind - that may not be so easy to come by through the course of the team's advancement. The player's taking a gamble that the lop-sided skill selections will pay off and allow him to correct the imbalance later in the campaign. Speaking from the standpoint of just such a player, this gamble does not always pay off. (I outfitted my first three-man team entirely with Ambush, and after losing two consecutive games realized that the perceived advantage wasn't as great as I'd hoped. My team was left lacking a more useful range of skills, and I had no way to correct that deficiency.)

While some may see Ambush-heavy teams are unfairly imbalanced, I can't say I agree. YMMV.

[pixelgeek]

I don't think that the long term viability of the Ambush heavy force is really the issue. If you are interested in building a list to play a long campaign then I doubt you will take a list that is focused only on shooting and ambush but the fact is that you can and its a PITA to play against.

How a player's team develops long-term isn't the issue at hand.

[ZenWired]

How a player's team develops long-term isn't the issue at hand.

I never said it was; but the selection of Threshold skills - both initially and through advancement - is part and parcel of the game system as a whole. I don't see how you can have a discussion of allegedly "broken" skills without considering how things play out in the long run. After all, this game is built around campaign play - it's not a set of rules for one-off encounters.

Semantics aside, I guess I don't understand why this is such a big deal for some people. So what if your enemy has the potential of having every model waiting to fire on you? That just means you have to be clever enough to find a way around it (use cover to approach unseen, overwhelm him with numbers, use long range weapons against him, etc.). It is a wargame, after all.

Besides, on the average, those models waiting to fire have a 50% or less chance of hitting your models as they approach. It's not like his success is guaranteed, and at one shot per model, how much good will having a few models on "overwatch" ultimately do him?

...its a PITA to play against.

So are a lot of the Lurker models. If these things weren't a challenge to overcome, I wouldn't want to play the game... 

Again, YMMV. Obviously, everybody's got their likes and dislikes. But I can't agree that the rules, as written, are broken. There may be imbalances, but I've seen those in every decent game I've ever played. That's what makes them fun, IMHO.

[pixelgeek]

I never said it was;

You said:

The player's taking a gamble that the lop-sided skill selections will pay off and allow him to correct the imbalance later in the campaign. Speaking from the standpoint of just such a player, this gamble does not always pay off.

Seems that is what you were saying is it not?

I don't see how you can have a discussion of allegedly "broken" skills without considering how things play out in the long run.

Because the issue I am raising isn't related to the long-term strategy of the skill choice.

Semantics aside, I guess I don't understand why this is such a big deal for some people

And yet here you are in the discussion... if you don't feel the issue is important and you don't have any constructive points to make either way then I am confused as to why you're participating. Its not mandatory that you reply to a topic.

It's not like his success is guaranteed, and at one shot per model, how much good will having a few models on "overwatch" ultimately do him?

The models aren't on "overwatch" they are still active the entire turn since Ambush allows them to activate and still be on Alert.

[ZenWired]

Sorry, pixelgeek. I didn't realize that this discussion was not open for people with dissenting opinions. (Or perhaps it's just that nothing I have to say in opposition to your point of view meets your criteria of "constructive?") I'll recuse myself from the conversation.

[PushStudios]

I dunno man, I apologize that you're having trouble with Ambush but I don't really see it as an overbalanced skill, and this is coming from a player who not only uses Ambush on all his models but plays against people who do.

At 15-18 BP you can EASILY swarm an enemy with models, if you don't mind me being a bit presumptuous try this list out;

Cult Leader "Stan" 6BP
Club, .22
Improved Command

Cult Leader "Larry" 6BP
Club, .22
Improved Command

Cultist "Mike, Jenny and Bartholomew" 1BP (x3)
Club

Cultist "Terrance, Ashley and Francine" 1BP (x3)
.22

That's eighteen points and lets you nominate 7 models a turn. Nominate Cult Leader (A) who uses Improved Command to nominate two Cultists and Cult Leader (B), who in turn nominates three more Cultists.

Now, simply swarm him with Cultists and beat him to death with those Clubs (hooray for D+2).

Is it guaranteed to work? No, he could roll really well or you could roll really poorly, thats just part of any game, but it works awesomely for me.

Also, terrain is mutual satisfaction, which means yes, you can't cut off all his firing lines, but, you don't have to let him stick you with wide open spaces either.

[pixelgeek]

Sorry, pixelgeek. I didn't realize that this discussion was not open for people with dissenting opinions.

Please go troll somewhere else

[pixelgeek]

At 15-18 BP you can EASILY swarm an enemy with models, if you don't mind me being a bit presumptuous try this list out;

I should have been clearer. I don't have that many figs available.

And perhaps I am in the minority but if I play a game that uses a point system then I shouldn't have to custom build a list to fight an opponent based on his list.

If I do then that, to me, says that there is an issue somewhere.

Also, terrain is mutual satisfaction, which means yes, you can't cut off all his firing lines, but, you don't have to let him stick you with wide open spaces either.

Did I say that I let him stick me with wide open spaces?

[mkcontra]

And perhaps I am in the minority but if I play a game that uses a point system then I shouldn't have to custom build a list to fight an opponent based on his list.

If I do then that, to me, says that there is an issue somewhere.

Don't kid yourself, that's a pretty impossible ideal to reach.  Few if any games that I've ever encountered can pull off that kind of balance...

[pixelgeek]

Don't kid yourself, that's a pretty impossible ideal to reach.

You think its impossible for the game to be balanced? There have already been a few good suggestions here as to how to amend the Ambush rule to solve this issue so I don't think its impossible.

[mkcontra]

I think you can balance ambush well enough; I don't think you can ever come up with a system balanced enough where you won't ever need to tinker with lists to counter what your opponent comes up with (that's the beauty of playing more than once, list-building and game-creation...). 

[pixelgeek]

I think you can balance ambush well enough; I don't think you can ever come up with a system balanced enough where you won't ever need to tinker with lists to counter what your opponent comes up with (that's the beauty of playing more than once, list-building and game-creation...). 

I guess the issue is what you think of as tinkering. Adding a rifle or giving a character a skill is what I think of as tinkering. Doing an entire list to counter a skill choice seems excessive to me.

I tend to not game like this, I usually build forces that I think are fun or thematic. Which also explains why I lose a lot.

There are things in the game that I do think are powerful but are definitely an area where you can tweak a list... thinks like weapons with parry.

Being able to get all the members of a force with Ambush right away is what I think is problematic. If a gamer has a four member party with Ambush after eight wins then that is a different issue but at 15 - 18pts it appears to be a surefire game winner.

[PushStudios]

Normally I would agree with you, you shouldn't necessarily have to build a list specifically to counter someone, but SA is sorta unique in its one-sided character development. I actually feel, going into the game that if I'm playing Lurkers the point is not to win or lose, its to make the game interesting, both as a story and by making it difficult for the Threshold player.

I guess the best way to describe it is the way my friends and I play Lurkers is more of a Games Master idea, which is why we always alternate our games.

That, to me, is one of the endearing points of Strange Aeons, its not just random games, its an evolving story. Which is awesome because I'm far too lazy and busy to actually Role Play, so SA is an awesome balance.

Also, I don't have that many SA figs either, but I proxy the shit out of my buddies WarHammer stuff. Proxying is the poor mans best friend!

However, the real sticking point seems to be that you think Ambush is overpowered, I happen to disagree, you can take my list and remove Improved Command from one Cult Leader and take out two Cultists and it works just as well at 15 points.

It seems like the best thing you could do is just add a House Rule that says you can't take Ambush as a Free Skill for your games. Or give your guys Bolt Action Rifles (I think those are the ones with 20" range) and make them come to you.

[pixelgeek]

I have some Deep Ones that I can paint and use as Cultists for the meantime. I agree that a swarm of nine guys should end Peabody's force but I am definitely going to suggest that as a house rule we restrict Ambush to only upgrades and not free skills.