North Africa in the Interwar Period

[carlos marighela]

Yes, while writing the piece on Egypt I discovered that the Italians had managed to move ten divisions up to the Libyan/Egyptian Border just in case Britain reacted unfavourably to their invasion of Abyssinia. The British were oblivious to this.

It makes for a fun bit of alternate history. The RAF redeployed quite a few aircraft to Egypt in preparation for war. Anyone fancy a Hawker Fury/ CR32 match up? The Italians wouldn't have been able to support all those troops logistically in an invasion of Egypt in 1936, as 1940 would appear to confirm. Of course they would also have to hold back a goodly portion as insurance against a French attack from Tunisia.

The biggest fly in the ointmen of course is the Royal Navy. The relative strengths of the two navies means it would be a short war and naval aviation isn't going to balance things up for the Italians.

If you want a decent read Jim, I'd suggest, Gooch's Mussolini and his Generals. It's a study of Italian defence planning in the 1930s.

[carlos marighela]

Oh and leaving the Ethiopian Crisis to one side, for those of you who have read Saul Kelly's Hunt for Zerzura, you'll know plenty of great scenarios abound, with a wonderful Pulp feel already built in. Ralph Bagnold, founder of the LRDG, exploring the desert with his army mates. Italian's fitfully trying to impose a new boundary. A suspicious Hungarian 'Count' double dealing. Wonderful props, biplanes, Ford tourers, Italian Askari, lost oases and even maybe the lost army of Cambyses. Everything you'd want. It does lack evil Nazis but hey feel free to add your own.

[Arlequín]

I will be looking out for those. 

The British Army in Egypt was in worse shape in the mid to late 30's than it was in 1940, when the Italians attacked with the same forces they had prepared to do in 1936. Transport was the major issue, Balbo assessed he'd need 10k trucks and lorries to achieve success, the whole Italian army didn't have that many, nor the capacity to acquire them for a number of years. While I guess the Italian rate of advance would be as slow as in 1940 too (or not depending on who was leading them), the British had little to oppose them with other than Infantry and the problems in Palestine tied up a large number of troops. One 'tank' unit was equipped with trucks mounting 2 machine guns in lieu of tanks as late as 1939. The RAF was reinforced, including Douglas Bader's squadron flying Bristol Bulldogs! Any assistance to the British is likely to have come from the Senussi, for a price.  It would be a most fascinating scenario imo.

 

[njetkulturny]

Yes. I second the praise for the book by Saul Kelly.

Actually I had the the idea of merging Corto Maltese with the expedition of this egyptian Prince in his Halftrack Citroen Kegresse flottilla and let them battle it out with some Berber and Kushite forces. It is in a state of collecting the figures at the moment but it will be made......in this century

And this has absolutely nothing to do with VBCW but it is VERY interesting.

[carlos marighela]

Yes. I second the praise for the book by Saul Kelly.

Actually I had the the idea of merging Corto Maltese with the expedition of this egyptian Prince in his Halftrack Citroen Kegresse flottilla and let them battle it out with some Berber and Kushite forces. It is in a state of collecting the figures at the moment but it will be made......in this century

And this has absolutely nothing to do with VBCW but it is VERY interesting.

Maybe Jim would like to move it on to another thread? I'm quite happy to keep talking about the Western Desert, Brits and Italians etc in the 1930s, available models etc etc.

[Arlequín]

Maybe Jim would like to move it on to another thread? I'm quite happy to keep talking about the Western Desert, Brits and Italians etc in the 1930s, available models etc etc.

I exist to serve... 

The topic is concerned with conflict or potential conflict between European Powers in North Africa. Exploration and Adventure should be addressed via the Back of Beyond Board (I suppose, but I'm not too picky about this tbh) and Italy's Abyssinian Campaign on the Colonial Board. Confusing huh? 

[Poiter50]

Bardia by Craig Stockings has a very good analysis of the Italian's preparedness for war including the pre-war years. Besides Italy was busy in Spain from mid 1930s to 1939, IIRC? Even though they gained some good experience there, their losses there were very high and they then promoted those commanders beyond operational usage.

[traveller]

If you´re in for a fictional setup, why not add some Russians...

" the mayor of Addis Ababa feared that communists might try to disrupt Hayla Sellase’s coronation in November 1930.  Then, in 1931, the Ethiopians allegedly discovered that communist cells, directed by Russian immigrants.  Weapons had arrived in Ethiopia and authorities arrested an Ethiopian.  Another alleged Ethiopian member of the Communist community was Bajerond Takle-Hawaryat, an Ethiopian trained in a tsarist military school and lead author of Ethiopia’s constitution of 1931"

http://users.ju.edu/jclarke/redandwhite.htm

[carlos marighela]

Well for those of you with a yen to field your Copplestone Vickers mediums in a new or different setting, 6 Royal Tank Corps was based in Egypt from 1933 and equipped with them. These were painted in a rather cool looking camouflage scheme of pale cream with bands of red oxide along with 11th Hussars Rolls Royce armoured cars.

I have seen a colour plate depicting the scheme but annoyingly can't find it at present. In lieu here is the description from Mike Starmers camouflage guide and some period photos.

http://www.mafva.net/PDF/BritishCamouflage1.pdf

http://arcaneafvs.com/vmedium.html

MkII Light tanks were also in theatre, the residue from 7 RTC (IIRC) ended up with the div cavalry squadrons of the 6th Australian Division , at least briefly, as training vehicles. There are photos in the AWM showing them on manouvres.

[ErikB]

Don't forget the N. African natives (e.g. Berbers) becoming increasingly annoyed with France. 

Wouldn't be hard to imagine a fictional Soviet force fomenting rebellion against occupying France under a flag of nationalism. 

French regulars vs. the N. Africans, Brits either siding with France against the Nationalists (w/Soviet friends) or taking the opportunity to weaken France by supporting the Africans.

Also wouldn't be hard to imagine N. Africans with covert English (or covert French) backing vs. Italians winding up before the war.

[commissarmoody]

You could also always do the Italian invasion, and Colonial adventure in Libya.
Watch the Lion of the Dessert to get some idea's, the Italian kit isn't over powering. Fights over oases, raids on lonely forts, desperate battles in the towns and mountains.

[carlos marighela]

Don't forget the N. African natives (e.g. Berbers) becoming increasingly annoyed with France. 

Wouldn't be hard to imagine a fictional Soviet force fomenting rebellion against occupying France under a flag of nationalism. 

French regulars vs. the N. Africans, Brits either siding with France against the Nationalists (w/Soviet friends) or taking the opportunity to weaken France by supporting the Africans.

It would if you have any understanding of the direction of Soviet foreign policy, the standing of 'internationalism' and support for such actions under Stalin during the nineteen thirties. Inciting native populations wasn't high on his 'to do list'.

Tribal rebellions aside, a real threat from nationalist elements to French occupation wouldn't take place until the 1940s, partly as a loss of French prestige and partly because of the actions of the pied noir. The British had absolutely no incentive to undermine France in North Africa and support of anti-colonial sentiment was hardly in Britain's interests.

Given a direct threat to Britain's interests they would not be above encouraging tribal reveolt and there's plenty of historical evidence on that score.

[Arlequín]

There is a potential for a campaign by Italy against France or Britain prior to WW2. Italy had twenty divisions, half of which were moved to possibly advance into Egypt, while the remainder were to defend against the French in Algeria and Tunisia.The only native threat came from the Senussi who had acted against Britain and Italy during WW1. There was still simmering resentment amongst them, particularly towards the Italians.

I have to admit that I find Russian involvement in the region extremely unlikely, with the exception of Iraq, but again I think this would be a real stretch at this time.

[Helen]

Well for those of you with a yen to field your Copplestone Vickers mediums in a new or different setting, 6 Royal Tank Corps was based in Egypt from 1933 and equipped with them. These were painted in a rather cool looking camouflage scheme of pale cream with bands of red oxide along with 11th Hussars Rolls Royce armoured cars.

I have seen a colour plate depicting the scheme but annoyingly can't find it at present. In lieu here is the description from Mike Starmers camouflage guide and some period photos.

http://www.mafva.net/PDF/BritishCamouflage1.pdf

http://arcaneafvs.com/vmedium.html

MkII Light tanks were also in theatre, the residue from 7 RTC (IIRC) ended up with the div cavalry squadrons of the 6th Australian Division , at least briefly, as training vehicles. There are photos in the AWM showing them on manouvres.

Hi Carlos,

Please look at these links:

http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Allies/3-UK/02-MediumTanks/Vickers-MediumTanks/Vickers-Mark2.htm

http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Allies/3-UK/01-LightTanks/Vickers-Mk2/Vickers-Mk2.htm

http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Allies/3-UK/02-MediumTanks/Vickers-MediumTanks/Vickers-Mark2(CS).htm

Cheers,

Helen

[ErikB]

It would if you have any understanding of the direction of Soviet foreign policy, the standing of 'internationalism' and support for such actions under Stalin during the nineteen thirties. Inciting native populations wasn't high on his 'to do list'.

Tribal rebellions aside, a real threat from nationalist elements to French occupation wouldn't take place until the 1940s, partly as a loss of French prestige and partly because of the actions of the pied noir. The British had absolutely no incentive to undermine France in North Africa and support of anti-colonial sentiment was hardly in Britain's interests.

Given a direct threat to Britain's interests they would not be above encouraging tribal reveolt and there's plenty of historical evidence on that score.

Sorry, Carlos, I should have qualified this as some "what if?" ideas.  I'm familiar with the history.  My wife and her family are Berbers.  Her dad fought against the French in the 50s.