Vichy French Moroccan Spahis

[joroas]

Artizan sell Goumiers and have a painting guide:

http://www.artizandesigns.com/guides/GoumiersWW2.pdf

[Tannenberg]

Artizan sell Goumiers and have a painting guide:

http://www.artizandesigns.com/guides/GoumiersWW2.pdf

Hi joroas,

Thank you too for the information and link....again, a most useful addition 

[Tannenberg]

I got something for you. Send me a PM with your email 

Hi Traveller,

I received the email with all the little goodies....very, very useful stuff there....a repeated BIG thank-you 

[sepoy1857]

Les Indegines is a GREAT movie - watch it if you can find a copy.

[Tannenberg]

Les Indegines is a GREAT movie - watch it if you can find a copy.

Hi Sepoy....good to hear from you!  Yes, a number of people have actually recommended this film so it'll be something I'll have to add to my collection.

On a slight distraction here, I noticed the French used the Gnome et Rhones AX2 motorcycle combo.  You wouldn't by any chance know of any pictorial pointers for this machine?

[Sir Dryden]

Hi to all,

Indigènes is a good movie. Not great, but good nonetheless. It's not Band of Brothers or the horrible, horrible Unglorious Basterds, it doesn't have that much "action" in it. It's closer to a movie like Stalingrad in terms of pacing and action-versus-introspection ratio. Still, if you're interested in Morrocan Spahis, I think it's the best (or, sadly, only...) movie reference you can get.

Yours truly,

Sir Dryden

[Tannenberg]

Hi to all,

Indigènes is a good movie. Not great, but good nonetheless. It's not Band of Brothers or the horrible, horrible Unglorious Basterds, it doesn't have that much "action" in it. It's closer to a movie like Stalingrad in terms of pacing and action-versus-introspection ratio. Still, if you're interested in Morrocan Spahis, I think it's the best (or, sadly, only...) movie reference you can get.

Yours truly,

Sir Dryden

Thank you Sir Dryden.  Yes, it does sadly look like it may be the only movie reference I would manage to get, which is a pity. 

[carlos marighela]

Realistic like Saving Private Ryan.

Thing I like about you Hammers is that you have a very dry sense of wit.

[Tannenberg]

Right then chaps, I've been studying the organisation of the Spahis units on the 'France 1940' site http://france1940.free.fr/armee/dlc.html

It says 'The North African Brigade de Spahi was organised in the same way as the DLC's cavalry brigade'.

The organisation was as follows....''The cavalry squadrons each had four platoons of thirty-six men. These were organised into one platoon HQ of four men, two thirteen-man groupes de combat (sections), each with two half-sections of six men, one of fusiliers (riflemen) with a Chatellerault FM 24/29 light machine-gun and one of éclaireurs (scouts) with a VB rifle grenade launcher, commanded by an NCO plus one extra escouade (half-section) of fusiliers per platoon''.

Another source gave details for the Spahis, in Vichy French service, in North Africa, as ''a total of 2000 horsemen/lorried infantry with a few armoured cars''.

Question a: were the Spahis fusiliers and éclaireurs lorried?

Question b: what armoured cars would have been used or would it have been a case of them possibly using the AMR33 or AMC35???


 

[Arlequín]

The Spahis Brigade was just two regiments of Cavalry in 1940, without any attached units, as was a normal cavalry brigade. The integral MG and AT weapons were horse towed and the mortars on pack horses. The lorried infantry, armoured cars etc. were added at divisional level in the cavalry. I'm guessing that some later attempt was made to form a cavalry division or reinforced brigade, hence the mention of armoured cars and lorried infantry, or it could just be attached segments of other units.

The 'AMC' was the Citroen Kegresse P16, the 'AMR' was the C-K P28 (apparently similar to the P16) and the 'AMD' the Laffly 50 AM (or WW1 vintage White armoured cars refitted to the same standard), which equipped most of the Metropolitan Cavalry Divisions in 1940, the few AMR 33 & 35 that survived 1940 were taken by the Germans. Barely any AMC 35 made it into service (except with the Belgians), Germany once more taking the survivors.   

I also found this, a rundown of Vichy deployments in 1942.

[Tannenberg]

Hi Jim, many thanks for the information there...there's some pretty interesting and very useful stuff there 

The other source I had mentioned (2000 horsemen/infantry) was from a Vichy French OB in Syria, at the time, or there abouts, of Operation Torch.

I've been trawling the net for as much info as possible on the unit breakdown for the French Vichy Spahis in that particular area of operations.....my curiosity is getting very much the better of me with regards to the 'lorried infantry' side of things and it would be great to dig a little deeper

Very interesting too about the 'AMC' and the 'AMR' info.

You're a goldmine of knowledge Jim and once again, thank you for your help

[Arlequín]

Your welcome! 

I got interested in the French from researching the Middle East for VBCW of all things. There are some good accounts of the Syrian-Lebanon Campaign of 1941 in Wikipedia (source of all knowledge, or at least a starting point), which may lead you towards the answers you seek. I know there was one Spahi unit there, which lost a few men when they skipped into Palestine to join the Free French. The remainder were shipped back to North Africa at some point.

The prospect of a French vs Commonwealth setting for early war is very appealing for some reason...   

[carlos marighela]

I got interested in the French from researching the Middle East for VBCW of all things.

Oh god, not a very Gallic Civil War. Visons of 'no no, Mr Sartre the brioche is clearly superior to the petit pain'

The prospect of a French vs Commonwealth setting for early war is very appealing for some reason...   

Well there's always Oran or Mers el Kebir 

[Tannenberg]

Your welcome! 

I got interested in the French from researching the Middle East for VBCW of all things. There are some good accounts of the Syrian-Lebanon Campaign of 1941 in Wikipedia (source of all knowledge, or at least a starting point), which may lead you towards the answers you seek. I know there was one Spahi unit there, which lost a few men when they skipped into Palestine to join the Free French. The remainder were shipped back to North Africa at some point.

The prospect of a French vs Commonwealth setting for early war is very appealing for some reason...   

Yes, I've sort of caught the bug in respect of a French vs Commonwealth setting for early war too....It would make a really nice change to the usual DAK vs Monty and his lads scenario. 
As you suggeted, I will also be looking further into the accounts of the Syrian-Lebanon Campaign of 1941....definitely looking forward to learning a bit more about the whole thing   Other than Wikipedia, are there any other books, which cover this particular campaign, that could be recommended?     
I've also noticed there are one or two books which cover the 1e Spahis Morocain...unfortunately they're in French and my comprehension of the French language, at this moment in time, is not at its best

[Arlequín]

England's Last War with France by Colin Smith is the only book I know specifically on the war with Vichy. Not having read it I can't comment, but it is on my to buy list.

If you think finding sources in English is hard, try sourcing the figures! British and Free French aren't to difficult, but the French are non-existent as far as I know, whatever the scale. It's going to be hard to pass off figures in greatcoats for the Levant in Summer.