what is the right vehicles scale for 28mm miniatures?

[HerbyF]

I just go to the store and if a toy car looks right I buy it. If I get it home and it is a little too big or too small, I toss it in a box to use as a project. If it fits I use it. I also get a lot of toy car at second hand stores.

[AKULA]

Im wanting to eventually start up my own zombie skirmish game, probaly using AR:SE rules.

Good man!

 

1/55th is my personal preference, but whatever looks right to you - i've also got 1/43rd police cars, and 1/50th corgi trucks.

if you've got big chunky bases on your figures, and the cars aren't based, the bigger scale vehicles still look alright IMHO.

[Silent Invader]

If you really want to get into the "what scale goes best with 28mm" then the mainly28s website has some pages that discuss it in depth.

As others have said, do what is to your liking.   

My personal preference is to start at 1/56 and then vary as necessary  according to whatever figures I am using (which aren't scaled but are sized and inconsistently at that!).

[dexter]

it's still worth checking pound or dollar stores . It's surprising how many useful vehicles you find there
d ex

[Commander Vyper]

A few shots of my gaming board, a number of scales from 1/43 to 1/50 to 1/64 on display







And I'm always scouting the pound shops, my latest RV is perfectly scaled and cost a measely £2.50:



The London Ambulance next to it 50p from a car boot sale.



Recycling lorry £3.50

So get an idea of how things work together and never pass a second hand store or supermarket without checking for vehicles!


The Commander

[KermittheFrog]

Wow fantastic replies guys, you couldn't have been more helpful.

Im going to go with what looks right but might allow slighly smaller then scale just to preserve board space but again, what feels right is definitley going to be my first option.

I was recommended this site by a friend at my gaming club and he told me I would get good anwsers. Certainly haven't been let down.
I only hope I can provide as much help to others.

[Antenociti]

1/48 is 0.5mm off a 28mm figure on a 5mm base (33.5mm v 33mm)

having said that some 1/48 vehicles are not 1/48, and many 1/56 are nowhere near 1/56 either, but are actually 1/48...and others use different scales vertically to horizontally...so theya re 1/48 upwards, and 1/56 (even 1/60) lengthways and sideways.

I use 1/48 because, for a 28mm figure on a 5mm base it is pretty much perfect.....(What is 1.5% error between friends eh?)

This concept confuses some people though, indeed makes some of them very angry indeed... (although that transpired to be because they'd just designed some of their own vehicles in a smaller scale and were about to start selling them.)

Obviously, if you put your vehicle on a base then this will no longer look correct anymore.....

Then again, many 28mm figures are not 28mm, so.... "what looks right" is the accurate answer for most people.

Very few die-cast and plastic vehicles are the scale they say they are either, most are actually box-scale or sprue-scale/die-scale etc, which means they are the size they are to fit to a pre-used size of box, packaging, sprue or casting process, rather than a specific scale. They are often given a scale though as people like seeing a scale...even if it isnt even close to that scale.

Which is why you often put two 1/48 vehicles of the same type/model, from different manufacturers, next to each other and they are radically different.

Occaisionally the vehicle "scale" is an outright marketing ploy (lie) to make you buy that "scale" and not cheaper alternaties in more common scales.... "Those figures/toys/dolls/things will only work with our 1/56 vehicles/toys/barbiedoll!" ... hmm... so why, if they are 1/56, wont other 1/56 vehicles work, and why are your 1/56 vehicles the exact same size as 1/48 plastic kits of the same thing?

You may ask the question..but dont expect a good answer...  

As far as the human brain works, and how we judge the size of objects, the height of the vehicles is the most important thing, so if it looks right when placed next to a based-figure then it is unlikely anybody will notice it is a different scale and too short, or too narrow etc....'coz thats just how the brain does things. (an image of a man in a doorway, where his head is close to the top of the door frame, is automatically thought of as being "tall" by the subconcious mind.... one has to conciously stop and consider how big the doorframe is afterwards....and how that might rather change the impression of his height.)

sneaky huh?

[Steve F]

One thing to remember is that the scale quoted on a toy's box can be completely wrong.  I just saw two different buses made by Maisto sitting next to each other in the shop.  Both claimed to be 1/50, but the double-length bendy bus was significantly lower than the (shorter) regular bus, and the seats inside much smaller.  The old habit of scaling to fit the box is still there!

[Michi]

One thing to remember is that the scale quoted on a toy's box can be completely wrong.  I just saw two different buses made by Maisto sitting next to each other in the shop.  Both claimed to be 1/50, but the double-length bendy bus was significantly lower than the (shorter) regular bus, and the seats inside much smaller.  The old habit of scaling to fit the box is still there!

This is the difference between toys and collector´s models. The latter are usually exactly to scale and much more detailed, but way more expensive.

[Antenociti]

The old habit of scaling to fit the box is still there!

yeah good-old "box-scale"... revell are rampant about it with their star-wars stuff, nothing is in the same scale.

[Arlequín]

I'm definitely in the 'as long as it looks right' group, but even then it's often hard to determine what looks right. Thankfully there's often a huge amount of material on the web, not withstanding the IDF's efforts at scale comparison shots;


Sherman vs M48


Merkava vs Cromwell


Merkava vs H-39


M113 vs People ... do they look quite small in comparison?

There's lots of pics out there of other armies and times to look at.

The point I'm trying to illustrate is that there is no 'right' scale for 28mm figures, just as there is no 'right' size for the 28mm figures themselves, you just have to go for whatever fits the particular figures you have. As mentioned above it's often a suck it and see process, especially with die-casts, and quite frustrating sometimes too.

We also tend to worry a lot about what's right between figures and vehicles, and then don't consider the terrain surrounding them. Why worry if your vehicle appears a couple of feet too small, when the building they are parked next to is often so under scale that their occupants would have to sleep upright? A typical farmer's field would cover a typical gaming table in real life, yet we usually depict several of them in our games.

[Pil]

I'm with Vyper on this one, 1:43-50 and never leave a store without checking for vehicles . I found the scales usually break down like this:

1:43 is common for regular cars, though some car companies don't adhere very strict to the scales. Especially small car models from Bburago are larger than they should be.
1:48 is a pretty standard model size for truck models and military kits, it looks good but it's hard to find a normal car in this size.
1:50 is a common size for specialist die-cast models like military vehicles and construction equipment. I find 1:50 tends to look too small for my EM4 models, though it might look good with less bulky historical/modern types. However, because a lot of vehicles in 1:50 are supposed to be large they often get away with it.

I think in general 1:48 looks best but the sheer abundance of 1:43 cars makes me favour them. Here are some examples of my vehicles:


1:43 Cararama Ford Transit with TAG (The Assault Group) US Vietnam helicopter crew (with head swaps).
More info and pictures here:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=22688.0


1:43 Bburago Ferrari with EM4 Future Warriors. More info and pictures here:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=12234.0
http://www.combatzonechronicles.net/cozoxb/white.htm


1:43 Cararama Hummer H2 with EM4 Future Warriors, you can see the Hummer looks pretty huge, but then so it does in real life. More info and picturess here:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=13962.0
http://www.combatzonechronicles.net/cozoxc/stryker.htm


1:43 Bburago Lamborghini Reventón with EM4 Future Warriors. More pictures and info here:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=24475.0
http://www.combatzonechronicles.net/cozoxc/hauer.htm


1:43 Cararama VW T4 vans with EM4 Future Warriors Police Bikes and riders. More info and pictures here:
http://www.combatzonechronicles.net/cozox/polis2.htm


1:50 GMC DUKW, I thought the seating was a bit too small so I removed it, it also helped because I could put a standing model inside. More of this model here:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=24733.0
http://www.combatzonechronicles.net/cozoxc/hatchet.htm


1:60 Cararama helicopter. As you can see the helicopter looks good as a small helicopter though this model should in fact be much larger (compare to: http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/8/6/3/1058368.jpg ), again, if it looks good go for it! More info and pics here:
http://www.combatzonechronicles.net/cozox/wpla.htm


No scale plastic dumper. There are a lot of cheap toys out there that are not actually scale models but that still look good, so develop an eye for them and look around.
More info and pictures here:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=22688.0

[Connectamabob]

1/48 is 0.5mm off a 28mm figure on a 5mm base (33.5mm v 33mm)

This is what I was wondering about before, though. In order to calculate a ratio scale, you have to have something on the mini that can be compared to a known measurement for it's life-size equivalent.

The closest thing to that on a mini is going to be an identifiable piece of kit, like a real world model of weapon, or something similar. Problem with this is that these are inconsistent from sculptor to sculptor, and manufacturer to manufacturer.

You could just assume that the given mm scale category represents an abstract hypothetical average human height (like 6'). This has loads of problems too though: MMs just tell you how tall the mini is, they don't tell you how tall the character it represents is, and that mm number may include things like shoe soles, hats, hair, posture/pose, base thickness in the case of molded in bases, all of which can add or subtract quite a lot to/from the character's scale height. Plus there's the whole crown vs eyeline thing, and varying degrees of stylization and scale creep which may confuse the character's actual height.

And even if one chooses to adopt a given argument, that doesn't mean it's the same logic used by the people who originated a given mm scale, or by those who made the figures. As I understand it, the common scaling conventions of 25/28/30mm etc were codified by smart mob over a period of decades, and have no consistent logic beyond the desire of individual gamers to have all their stuff look consistent on the table. In fact, for strictly gaming purposes, exact scale isn't important at all, and is openly fudged by both players and manufacturers. Mini size is what matters consistently.

I can see how someone might consider a certain ratio scale correct as a matter of personal preference, but I'm not sure I understand how one can be claimed as being objectively correct.

[Antenociti]

well thats the entire "wish-bang" issue with figures... the generally accepted method of measuring is foot-to-eye, so 28mm is the distance from the bottom of the foot to the figure's eye level. The next elelemnt is the height of the "actual" figure, and this is the usualy part when things go wrong.

The working "average" height was judged to be 5'3" to the eye, which is 1610mm. That resulting in an average total height of 5'8" which is 1730mm.

Then just divide the mm height by the "scale" to get the working height i.e. 1610/48 = 33.5mm Which gives you the height of a figure from bottom of foot to the eye level for 1/48 scale.
And that obviously works the other way... so a 6mm figure is 1610/6 = 1/268 scale

1610/28 = 57.5 scale, so that is your "true scale" for 28mm figures.

(If you want to use the figures full height then just use the 1730 number in place of 1610.)

If your "average" human is taller, than just change the numbers; a 6-foot Viking will 1829mm tall and in our 57.5 scale that means it will be 1829/57.5 = 31.8mm to the top of the head. i.e. about 1 mm taller than the 5'8" bloke.

Clearly the major factor influencing any result is what you take as your average height, how tall you want your figure to be, and whether you then use "28mm" to refer to eye-height or total height.... which is why it is a very bad way of doing things, and using a Scale would be far, far easier.

The next major issue, with buildings, scenery and vehicles, is that most people base their figures and (as discussed) because of how we judge ehight, that raising-up of the figure affects how we judge the scenery, buildings and vehicles (unless we also raise those up on bases).

For that reason, un-based scenery, vehciles and buildings can be a larger scale than the figure and look correct. Indeed same-scale can look too small. Pil's iamges are a very good example of over-scale vehicles looking correct... which is partly figure height but also because wargames figures tend to be a lot "fatter" than in reality, meaning that not only cna they appear talla gainst same-scale objects, but they can also make those objects look "thin": agood example being wargames figures being too "fat" for scale-accurate chairs/seats etc.

And even if one chooses to adopt a given argument, that doesn't mean it's the same logic used by the people who originated a given mm scale, or by those who made the figures. As I understand it, the common scaling conventions of 25/28/30mm etc were codified by smart mob over a period of decades, and have no consistent logic beyond the desire of individual gamers to have all their stuff look consistent on the table. In fact, for strictly gaming purposes, exact scale isn't important at all, and is openly fudged by both players and manufacturers. Mini size is what matters consistently.

Mini size is no more or less important than scenery, vehicle or buildings then: its only real use, if scale is fudged, is in relative terms i.e. knowing that CompanyA's 28mm figure will look OK next to CompanyZ's 28mm figures...and as we all know, this is not true.

Scale though is always accurate, its just s imple division, the problem is that we generally arent told the height of a figure... and often we dont consider the vast variations in height in reality. When we see  a small wargame figure we tend to say "that looks like a 25mm, wouldnt work with my Heroic 28mm" (Heroic 28mm whats THAT then?! = 30mm or 32mm??) In actuality the wargame figure may be a model of 5 foot tall person and therefore a '28mm figure'.

So mini size is generally miss-leading, sometimes an outright lie "Heroic 28mm" just isnt 28mm, it is anywhere from 30-32mm, in some cases 33mm (1/48), but labelled as 28mm so that people who have 28mm figures will consider buying them and not regard them as " a different scale".

Calling wargames figures "28mm scale" is what is missleading because it isnt codified and it is openly abused for marketing purposes, but if you wanted an accurate systme then, yes, you would ahve to use scale as well as indicating the intended figure-hieght of each wargame-figure i.e. this is a 5 foot 6 inch human in 1/56th scale.

Otherwise, as you say, it is all rather useless.

THis is also why websites that show comparison images of different figure ranges, buildings and vehciles are SO very, very, useful: we simply cannot trust the "mm scale" so comparitive photos are the only real way to judge if figures from one range are suited with another, and the same applies to vehicles. I ahve had discussion with people who have angrily dissmissed 1/48, let alone 1/43 vehicles EVER being able to look right next to 28mm figures...yet one only has to look at PIls photos to know that this is not so, and to see that a 1/57.5 vehicle would look tiny and very weird indeed! So how do some 1/56 things look right? Well either you raise them up on bases, or, often, they simply are not 1/56.... what vehicle maunfacturer wants toa dmit that his £30 resin WWII tank is actually 1/48, when that means you can go out and get 3 1/48 tank plastic kits with more detail for the same money?! (I certainly wouldn't!)

So, ultimately, the thing to bear in mind is that the only true test is comparitive images and keeping an old, based figure in your jacket as you browse toy-stores, is about the best way to pick up vehicles, whilst totally ignoring anything on their boxes about their supposed scale.

Thus: If it looks right, use it.

[Arlequín]

... and I thought my posts were long. 

But it is essentially correct in all its points. Most manufacturers who produce vehicles and figures do so to make them compatible with their own figures... Companies that just do vehicles sometimes scale them to suit a specified range by another manufacturer. With fictional or futuristic models it isn't so bad as there is no real item for comparison, but for historic items it's very different.

Figure bases do make a great difference too, which can make things easier or harder when trying to find vehicles to match, depending on the figure. With some manufacturers going for 'slotta' bases and others going for the thin/fat traditional flat blob of metal, even compatible ranges become incompatible.

It would definitely make life easier if people were to make things to scale, but it isn't going to happen and we'll just have to get used to 28mm as meaning 28mm+/-whatever.