New Rules from Empress! Operation Squad Modern War

[CptJake]

You may want to learn a little about who you're dealing with when you say stuff like

" Please keep the movie outside your mind... and read some good book (written from real soldiers) with a real production... You will discover a very different world..."

I've done more than read books.

I'll leave it at that.

  To claim no squad gets air support or fired on by RPGs, you may then also want to state squads don't operate as squads, they operate as part of a larger unit so your game is flawed from the get go.  If you assume your game models The Critical Squad, then my assertions stand.  The will be given the enablers they need.

Units that do operate as squads DO get air support.  Want examples?  Do some research on Operation Anaconda and the fighting in and around Tora Bora, read The Horse Soldiers (about ODAs in Afghanistan, look up ODA 555 for example), read about the ODAs in northern Iraq in 2003 (Debecka Crossroads for example), seriously, there are many examples from the current and recent wars.

As for RPGs, well with well over 9,000,000 RPG-7s (and variants) made, yeah, there are a lot out there.  And they do get fired at guys on foot, especially but not limited to when there are no vehciles being used.  Heck, they even volley fire them at helicopters...  My copy of 'House to House (written dare I say by a Real Sojer!!!) mentions hezbollah trained insurgent squads armed with nothing but RPGs who volley fire them at infantry troops then disperse and retreat to where they have more rounds cached.

Jake

 

Hi
I'm an italian player of Operation Squad, both the versions and also the new ASSAULT PLATOON (platoon level)

Sorry
but you are argue about what happen in Ambush Alley... not in the reality...
Maverick is saying that there are no one episode in the real war  with an air support at a single squad... Could you mention one?
I don't think so.
Probably it is you that base your argument on misperceptions.
Do you know how many rpg are produced?
If a single squad of twenty man have it it means that the are more than hundred of milions of RPG around somalia/afganistan/yugoslavia...
Please keep the movie outside your mind... and read some good book (written from real soldiers) with a real production... You will discover a very different world...

Bye
Francesco

[Gibby]

I shouldn't worry, CptJake, there are some very obvious fanboyish defenses being thrown by two suspiciously new members. Patronising ones at that. Your review was very fair, I guess it just hit a nerve 

[maverick]

Sorry but Operation Anaconda was the first large battle and involved more than a squad... I don' say that there is no air support or RPG I said that they focus on small portion of battlefield and the full game simulate around 20 minutes... Very short time in order to have air support for a single squad. Now I understand your point of view. You have in mind large battle focused on small scale... They have in mind small operation as scouting or patroling. Very different starting point. From your point of view you are right but it is not the idea that was behind this game. Just for answer at Gibby, yes, I am a new entry in this forum but I am here  only because you are talking about a game that I have played as a playtester. No more. I haven't say a single word against another game... I have just try to explain the reason behind some choice. I don' want argue with anyone. I want just said my opinion. For example, 9,000,000 RPG are quite few if you compare them also with only the Ak47 that have more than 100,000,000... But I don't want go ahead. Both of us have a different point of view. Happen. The only thing that I can do in order to show you my good will is pass to them your observation. They are really nice person and very open. Are you interested in talking with them?

[The Travelling Man]

....

[maverick]

At this point I don't find any reason to go ahead in this discussion. You wrote four book and you wrote the supplement for Ambush Alley...
 

[84 Sqdrn]

I have just joined the forum, specifically to comment on this thread (I'm a long time lurker)

The review by TTM was well written and had as far as I can see contained valid criticisms of a set of rules, Maverick's explanation as to the reasons that there are some quite basic omissions from the rules has now completely persuaded me not to buy them, and that TTM's reservations about the rules is totally justified.

As I'm only just getting back into modern wargames (the last time was with WRG rules) I have no allegiance to any set of rules.

Also although I don't have too much knowledge of current wars, I would respectfully point out the action involving MAKO30 on Takur Ghar (During Annaconda) where a 6 man team was supported by an AC130 and a (British) Predator drone - I recently watch a TV documentary about this action.

As for the arrogant reply "and read some good book (written from real soldiers) with a real production.." to someone who is a combat veteran really takes the biscuit.

[maverick]

I wish ask to anybody sorry for my sentence. I am not english and probably the sentence is more strong than I have thinked...

[Arlequín]

I think that's acceptable. I've enjoyed reading the various viewpoints and have been happy to let the discussion go on, as it hasn't got personal... I believe 'translation' was the issue, although on this forum you should not assume everyone has not had 'another life' which may have involved being a bullet magnet.



My own personal observations are that;

a) Even the biggest operations come down to single squads and fire teams, often operating alone in their particular and personal 'AO' (be it 10m, 10km or 100km, depending on the type/size of unit we are talking about). Regardless of the size of the unit, they are rarely operating without support of some form.

b) Air Support is variable. While a small routine patrol may struggle to get it sometimes, at others they will. More formal operations are given considerable assets to call on however. There is at least one video on You Tube where a patrol has called in an A-10 to destroy a small solitary building, which leads on to...

c) Modern regular armies tend to try to minimalise their casualties by using air/artillery support. Not a lot of fun when you are trying to make a game out of it, or indeed for the tax payer, but 'having no casualties at all' is the goal of any commander.

d) After the AK47/AKMS etc, one of the the most common weapons encountered on the battlefield is the RPG-7 and its clones. There were 9 million+ RPG-7s made in the Soviet Union alone, not counting those made elsewhere, like Iran. Added to this are the Type 69 launchers produced by China and other similar types (e.g. B-41).

While availability varies across the globe, they are extremely common in both Iraq and Afghanistan and indeed other conflicts. It was even the standard weapon of the Israelis for a time and they were just relying on captured stocks initially! It is standard issue in ISF and ANP squads too. You would have to go back to the 1960s and 1970s to find insurgents who struggled to obtain these weapons and even then they were able to... even the Provisional IRA had them back then!

A set of modern rules, especially at squad level, which doesn't include them, may as well not include rules for machine guns either.

e) Overwatch, fire and manoeuvre, call it whatever you like, has been a staple of infantry training in regular armies since forever (at least as far back as the 18th Century for some 'light infantry'). It is practised at all levels, even within a fire team, from Day 1. It is such a commonly understood tactic that even the insurgents or everyday bank robbers try to do it. 'Firing at the general area of the enemy' or 'suppressive fire' is often part of this - it's designed to stop the enemy seeing what you are doing.

The only place you don't tend to commonly find it is on multiplayer in 'Call of Duty' or similar games... but then dying isn't a bad thing on those.  

f) Insurgent snipers are not commonly 'Stone Killers' with accurate purpose built weapons, they are commonly the exact opposite and are lucky to get a 'near miss', which is of course enough to make most combat folk 'hit the dirt'. The degree of danger in taking a look to locate them and deal with them varies, but has to be done and we come back to 'Overwatch' as a way of protecting the guys manoeuvring to deal with the threat.

Insurgents have a hard time when all is said and done. This is why they rely on IEDs, mines, booby traps and ambushes to cause casualties. In a stand up shoot-out, they almost invariably lose, or are forced to withdraw, unless they get lucky for some reason. In game terms this is really frustrating for the insurgent player, as he largely doesn't get to 'do anything', unless the odds are stacked against his opponent somehow. It is however 'realistic', as is the 'regular' player taking cover and calling on whatever support he can to smoke them out, rather than being a good sport and fighting them on their own terms.

There will be situations where small units of regulars encounter larger groups of insurgents than they can comfortably handle. There may be occasions when such groups are unable to call on any support, within the 20 minutes or so the game is supposed to last at least. How common these are I couldn't say, but from what I gather from the comments here, is that 'Operation Squad: Modern War' is designed to cater for them. How well it does that is up for discussion.



Also, welcome to our new members! 

[84 Sqdrn]

Also, welcome to our new members! 

Thank you for the welcome, I shall return to my lurking now

[Arlequín]

You can never return to lurking... you've made a post... it's in the forum rules... probably... 

[CptJake]

India's Jagran Post reports Hagar's squad leader started to guide his men across a river, when Hagar was directly targeted by a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG).

"I turned and put one foot up on the riverbank and that's when I saw the back-blast of the RPG and the guy's silhouette and a silver thing with a red tip coming at me," Hagar says.

"I just looked at it and thought, 'What's that?' Then it hit me in the leg. I looked down and just thought, 'Awesome, my leg is still here'. It was like a big dude hitting you in the leg with a baseball bat. It was a pretty good thump."

One of the soldier's nearby saw the RPG bounce off Hagar's leg and explode in the dirt, while the struck specialist made his way to cover.



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/us-soldier-survives-direct-hit-from-a-rocket-propelled-grenade-after-it-bounces-off-his-leg-2012-10#ixzz2Fb2RSgvq

I guess the bad guy thougnt the trooper crossing the river on foot was a tank...

[Sirius]

Gents...

First, by way of declaring my "interest" in this debate, I play a fair amount of Operation Squad WW2, but have never played the Modern War variation despite owning a copy.

Second, I would agree with many of the points made by The Travelling Man in his initial review.

But I would take issue with one of your points, and argue that the idea of Overwatch as a separate order is probably unnecessary - the way the game "engine" works means that any unactivated models are on de facto "overwatch" and can react to movement and fire in their arc of vision. And certain support weapons can continue to react to movement and fire (albeit with more limited targeting options) despite having already activated.

What additional game effect would you want to create with an Overwatch order?

[maverick]

I guess the bad guy thougnt the trooper crossing the river on foot was a tank...

The complete description of this action news was:
"Specialist Devin Hagar's brush with death came during a patrol in Logar province south of Kabul. His PLATOON retreated along a river after coming under attack, and were about to cross when his squad leader decided they were in a bad spot..."... platoon...
http://post.jagran.com/us-soldier-in-afghanistan-survives-grenade-direct-hit-1349947036
and the video show that there are vehicles... and, as I said, if there is vehicles the RPG are present (and you can shoot them at anybody

But frankly, before that a new discussion start, you have convinced me about the RPG and I discuss the matter with them... and I discover that they have already included RPG in the patch downlodable free at shortly, together with some vehicles and some scenario. So I am sorry for the confusion.
About overwatch I am completely agree with Sirious.

[Arlequín]

I agree that an 'overwatch' order as such is superfluous, as we can assume that troops not engaged in another activity, would be observing, if only for their own safety. Not every wargamer appreciates this though, so I guess the inclusion of this in some rules is just a reminder to players, that their men are doing something, even when they are apparently doing nothing.

[CptJake]

But we've also already cleared up the fact that for regular forces, squad sized elements don't generally act alone, they act as part of platoons except in some special cases (where they are likely to get air support).   I guess they also act alone within the context of your game.  

You'll note in my example, the presence of vehicles has nothing to do with the presence of RPGs on the other side.  To imply the bad guys only brought RPGs to the fight because the good guys brought vehicles is frankly asinine.  And you will note the RPG was not fired at a vehicle, it was fired at a much smaller than platoon sized group of troopers (let us call it a squad, because the article sure did) crossing a river, and in particular was aimed at and hit a dismounted trooper.

In fact, if you talked with some actual soldiers, or read books by actual soldiers, or read any of the 'lessons learned' type documents/reports coming from theater, you could begin to develop the opinion that large IEDs are the insurgent weapon of choice against vehicles, not RPGs.  The RPG is going to get fired at any and all available targets to include the dismounts that unass the 'blowed up' vehicle hit by the IED. 


 

The complete description of this action news was:
"Specialist Devin Hagar's brush with death came during a patrol in Logar province south of Kabul. His PLATOON retreated along a river after coming under attack, and were about to cross when his squad leader decided they were in a bad spot..."... platoon...
http://post.jagran.com/us-soldier-in-afghanistan-survives-grenade-direct-hit-1349947036
and the video show that there are vehicles... and, as I said, if there is vehicles the RPG are present (and you can shoot them at anybody

But frankly, before that a new discussion start, you have convinced me about the RPG and I discuss the matter with them... and I discover that they have already included RPG in the patch downlodable free at shortly, together with some vehicles and some scenario. So I am sorry for the confusion.
About overwatch I am completely agree with Sirious.