*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 27, 2024, 05:52:40 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Donate

We Appreciate Your Support

Recent

Author Topic: War of the Roses C. 1515  (Read 9492 times)

Offline Arlequín

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 6218
  • Culpame de la Bossa Nova...
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2012, 06:49:42 AM »
You're welcome, I've been following your project on the blog for a while now and it's been interesting stuff, so I'm glad to contribute my dodgy suppositions and pseudo-historical notions to it.

 ;)

Offline dm

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 308
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2012, 12:15:47 AM »
This is a totally awesome project and very impressed by this body of work and research. Looking forward to seeing it develop further and a bring a fantastic 'what if' or if only period to life 8)

Offline puster

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 38
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2015, 11:12:28 AM »
As for the Landsknechts, definitely the black band. I know that Richard led them against the English at Therouanne in 1513 and in preparation for the invasion in 1514 along with a Robert de la Marck.

Sorry for the threadomancy. Only fits here, though.

Afaik the "Black Band" was created in 1514 by the Duke of Saxony for the Frisian Feud, went into service of the Duke of Geldern after that feud who led it to Francis army in 1515 (Potter errs in his assumption that these were men recruited in Geldern). Whatever de la Pole and de la Marck commanded in 1514 would be a different contingent, perhaps with a core of Landsknechts regiment (originally on loan from Maximilian) that fought at Ravenna and was almost destroyed at Novarra.
BTW: Given the nature of the men, I would not be surprised if a large number of the Landsknechts that seem to show up in France in 1514 came from the army that the (notoriously broke) Maximilian led there in 1513, to fight with the English at Guinegate. I could check my sources.

Anyway, as sources are notoriously unreliable any information on the "Black Band" in French service before 1515 would be much appreciated. "Black" as perhaps used to signal "elite" or veteran status, just like "old" or "white" in some occasions, and thus a dual use may be possible.

Offline Stuart

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 857
    • Army Royal
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2015, 01:11:33 PM »
Hello there

Potter mentions in 'Renaissance France at War'

'For the Marignan campaign Bubenberg's troop of 3500 already in France was reviewed at Lyon in July 1515 along with 5500-6000 Gelderlanders known as the 'Black Band'*'. here he quotes from a primary source.

....'these were low German Gelderlanders commanded by Tavannes.....Du Bellay noted that they were 'a fighting unit for 20 years' and they continued until Pavia - here two primary sources are quoted from, also a potential nucleus of 1494?

Thus with regard to their formation and area of origin Potter does not appear to be making any assumptions as these points are from eyewitness primary sources.

However, though De la pole commanded 6000 against the English at Therouanne in 1513 and 12000 were raised in 1514 to 'keep Normandy' / invade England I have assumed they were the black band.

I suppose of that 12000 it seems to make sense that these comprised of the 6000 he commanded near Therouanne (but never fought) plus more from those in the area after that campaign which could potentially include the Black band as mentioned above? the force was disbanded without loss in 1514 so these could easily have been the 5500-6000 who appear to have went on to Marignano?

Either way I think there's potential for the Black band to be involved in the 1514 invasion if it occured; the Duke of Guelders was anti Hapsburg and supported by the French at that juncture.

The 6000 figure is curious in latter years as in 1515 Potter (sorry) states from another primary source that an English spy confirms this number of Guelderlanders (possibly the black band?).

De la Pole is mentioned as commanding 6000 in 1523 (primary source) and we know that the black band were destroyed in 1525.

As for the name, i'm not going there, it's too risky !

hope that helps - it might have left more questions but food for thought.

Stuart
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 01:57:18 PM by Stuart »

Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11937
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2015, 01:47:02 PM »
Sorry for the threadomancy. Only fits here, though.

I'm a civil servant, a 2 year delay is positively efficient  ;D

Afaik the "Black Band" was created in 1514 by the Duke of Saxony for the Frisian Feud, went into service of the Duke of Geldern after that feud who led it to Francis army in 1515 (Potter errs in his assumption that these were men recruited in Geldern).

Potter mentions in 'Renaissance France at War'

'For the Marignan campaign Bubenberg's troop of 3500 already in France was reviewed at Lyon in July 1515 along with 5500-6000 Gelderlanders known as the 'Black Band'*'. here he quotes from a primary source.

....'these were low German Gelderlanders commanded by Tavannes.....Du Bellay noted that they were 'a fighting unit for 20 years' and they continued until Pavia - here two primary sources are quoted from, also a potential nucleus of 1494?

Thus with regard to their formation and area of origin Potter does not appear to be making any assumptions as these points are from eyewitness primary sources.

However, though De la pole commanded 6000 against the English at Therouanne in 1513 and 12000 were raised in 1514 to 'keep Normandy' / invade England I have assumed they were the black band.

I suppose of that 12000 it seems to make sense that these comprised of the 6000 he commanded near Therouanne (but never fought) plus more from those in the area after that campaign which could potentially include the Black band as mentioned above? the force was disbanded without loss in 1514 so these could easily have been the 5500-6000 who appear to have went on to Marignano?

Either way I think there's potential for the Black band to be involved in the 1514 invasion if it occured; the Duke of Guelders was anti Hapsburg and supported by the French at that juncture.

The 6000 figure is curious in latter years as in 1515 Potter (sorry) states from another primary source that an English spy confirms this number of Guelderlanders (possibly the black band?).

De la Pole is mentioned as commanding 6000 in 1523 (primary source) and we know that the black band were destroyed in 1525.

As for the name, i'm not going there, it's too risky !

hope that helps - it might have left more questions but food for thought.

Stuart



i don't mean to be a pain, but who's quoting and who's commenting?  o_o o_o :)

Darrell.

Offline Stuart

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 857
    • Army Royal
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2015, 01:58:44 PM »
Sorry Darrell, Gremlins.  :?

Have you had any more thoughts on your artillery & archers?


Offline Stuart

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 857
    • Army Royal
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2015, 02:24:06 PM »
Henry's Landsknechts or 'Almynys' were recruited from Ghent & Antwerp, or at least were mustered there, the following papers from 1513 relate to their employ, some interesting reading with the usual problems associated with mercenaries, Arlequin will enjoy these methinks;

January 1513, date illegible, John Stile to HVIII; And the Kyng yowr sayd faders sayeyng to me hath byn now of late, that there can be no good war made wyth owte Almaynys, and that therfore hys Majesty thynkeyth that yowr grace awzghte for to have many Almaynys in yowr warrys

3 April 1513 Sir Richard Wingfield to HVIII; Have not received instructions when the 4,000 Almayns are to enter into wages; they have been accustomed to receive their pay immediately, not to be prested. Will have to take them by companies as they come, even though it be before the 15th May, the day Henry has appointed for his horsemen; otherwise they might go over to France

31 May 1513 Sir Richard Wingfield to HVIII; Leaves for Antwerp to-morrow to prepare a passage for the Almains to Calais

Receipt, 3 July 1513 Hen. VIII., by Th. Trye and Ric. Clotton, for necessaries "for the retinue of the Almayns," viz., white and green sarcenet, to make a standard.

don't you just love olde English ! you need to have at least 4 ales in you to understand it

Offline Arlequín

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 6218
  • Culpame de la Bossa Nova...
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2015, 02:42:11 PM »
Forsooth thou knowst a mannes playsur.  ;)

Germans, Swiss and Low Country 'duitslanders' were all Germans as far as the rest of Europe was concerned back then. Only modern army list compilers draw a distinction.
 :)

'Black Band' is as common a name for a mercenary company as 'city' is for a football team, 'Bande Nere' Anyone? Possibly in the former they had a single black band on their standard, Giovanni della Bande Nere had a number of them on his, hence the name being applied. Not definite of course, but possible.

Some companies had just as long a lineage as football clubs, same entity, just different managers and players over the years. Given that there was continuous warfare in the region from 1477 onwards... to about 1815, I would not be surprised if it was the same Black Band that stayed in being from formation in 1514 until 1525.

*Edit* To be honest, being born and bred in Wolverhampton, speaking Old English comes with the territory, so reading it isn't so hard.

   :D
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 02:48:13 PM by Arlequín »

Offline Stuart

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 857
    • Army Royal
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2015, 06:15:38 PM »
Just to avoid confusion; in the 1513 campaign HVIII employed Landskechts via Henri of Nassau, Maximilian also brought Landsknechts from the Low Countries paid for by Henry but owing to political climate these won't have been Guelderlanders.

The latter I believe we're the source of at least some of the Lansquenets recruited by the French for both the relief and defence of Therouanne. The relieving force under de Piennes could well have contained the returning Guelderlanders from the previous years italian campaign, these (Landsknechts under de Piennes ) were captained by de la pole.

Sorry to flog a dead horse but there are several bands of Landsknechts in a single campaign here so I'm attempting to eliminate some as not being the black band

Offline puster

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 38
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2015, 03:51:01 PM »
Potter mentions in 'Renaissance France at War'

'For the Marignan campaign Bubenberg's troop of 3500 already in France was
reviewed at Lyon in July 1515 along with 5500-6000 Gelderlanders known as
the 'Black Band'*'. here he quotes from a primary source.

....'these were low German Gelderlanders commanded by Tavannes.....Du Bellay
noted that they were 'a fighting unit for 20 years' and they continued until
Pavia - here two primary sources are quoted from, also a potential nucleus of 1494?

He certainly quotes sources, but that does not mean these sources are correct.

The original "Grote Guard" was formed after Maximilian dissolved (or simply did not
pay) his army in 1493, after the treaty of Senlis made a standing army too expensive.
The unemployed German landsknechts choose one of theirs as leader, Neidhard Fuchs, who led the group into Geldern, because he deemed the duke of Geldern an enemy of the Emperor and so assumed Maximilian would not not object - Neidhard told this  later Wiwolt von Schaumburg, who emplyed his guard from 98 for the Duke of Saxony and who left an extensive - if hard to read - autobiography.

The Duke of Geldern, faced with this thread, just hired the band and used it in its own wars, and for the next years the different Landsknecht bands played an infamous part in the policies of the region - with Fuchs usually managing to keep a core of his men employed.

They fought for the King of Sweden, the Dukes of East Frisia, Gelderland or Saxony, the count of Oldenburg and various other employers - often against
other bands, though not gladly, more often against peasant levys or town militia, for
in this decade Frisia lost its independence to the Duke of Saxony and many other nobles tried to subdue these peasant republics, too.

Fuchs was killed, trapped by an overwhelming force from Groningen on his way to Emden, in April 99, and Thomas Slentz took over the band. When the King of Denmark was hiring mercenaries to subdue Dithmarshen, Slentz had
8 Fähnlein with some 2800 men in his "Black Guard". Due to ineptitude of the
Danish King they had to fight at Hemmingstedt under conditions choosen by the defending peasants, and the invasion force was crushed decisively. At least 800 of th Guard, with most of the leaders and including the complete command staff, died. The remnants were immediatly reenlisted for service in Geldern, but the two surviving Fähnleins were no longer a comprehensive "band" but acted independent from now on. The payrolls tell us that only 2 Fähnlein of the 8 remained, but both were considerably larger then before, taking up surviving members of the other
 six. In total, only 800 Landsknechts were missing, though it is possible that survivors from the feudal or royal contingent of army also enrolled, so losses may be higher. These units stayed in Saxon service for now.

When the new Duke of Saxon created an army for the subjugation of Frisia in 1514, he again created a "Black Guard" in his own territories, as his main force, and a "White Guard" from locally raised men - the latter never played a significant role. It is
possible - even likely - that this "Black Guard" had at least individuals who
had remained in Saxon service for the intermittend 14 years, but I have not found
records to support this (yet).

So these men were NOT raised in or even near Gelderland, but for Saxony in the Empire proper and then led to Frisia, where they earned a notoriously bad reputation, in the best (or worst) tradition of the original black guard.

Among many other misdeeds, they razed the home of a peasant that
would become the "Grote Piet", an infamous pirate and founder of the "Black hope of Amrum".

When this feud ended (for a time), the Black Band was paid and released on July 1st 1515. Several Frisian histories relate that the majority of these Landsknechts were then taken into service by Charles of Gueldern, who joined these to his own force and let his army via Drente through Geldern to Francis. According to the Encylopedia by Johann Samuel Ersch the Gueldric forces joined Francic at Rovata, not at Lyon, as they were late. Charles left them in Francis army under the command of his nephew, Claude de Lorraine, the later Duke of Guise (his mother was the sister of the Duke).

At this point a contemporary witness may well deem all of these to be Gelderlanders,
but to me it seems that the Gueldric forces were rather absorbed by the "Black band" (given the name), and the majority of these men were not Gelderlanders but from the Empire proper, coming from the typical recruiting grounds of Landsknechts.

Regardless their background, I am absolutely sure that THIS black band was
not at Therouanne. There might be another group, similarly named, though I
deem that unlikely. The first date the Black Band could have joined French service is late July 1515.

As there are some 17.000 Landsknechts reported for Marignano (and Potter gives 23000 for French service in 1515 in toral), it makes sense to assume that the 12000 assembled were simply joined by the 6000 of the Black Band.


Either way I think there's potential for the Black band to be involved in the 1514
invasion if it occured; the Duke of Guelders was anti Hapsburg and supported by the
French at that juncture.

As the black band was at this time still devastating East Frisia for the Duke of Saxony, I fear I must disagree here.


we know that the black band were destroyed in 1525.

Indeed. One of the great mysteries to me is that the name "Black band" is not
mentioned anywhere in French service in between 1515 and 1525 - at least I have
not found it yet.

What I DID find were two references in histories on the Netherlands - written
in Germany in the early 19th century - that the Black Bands did return to
Gueldern after Marignano and were involved in the figthing there. It may be
that some of the pretty gruelsom actions that are blamed on the "black band of
amrum" and the Groote Pier were actually committed by the remnant Black bands
in Gueldric service. Allegedly some 1500 were killed during the storming of
Asperen, which was totally razed afterwards - numbers I find unlikely from
a piracy band. After 1518 the references vanish here, too. It can be that
parts returned while others remained in French service.

There is some military action by Gueldern given for 1524, but not much.

One source:
Zwölf Bücher niederländischer Geschichten, Band 2, Heinrich Leo  - P283,  Halle 1835

When the French raised a new Landsknechts unit for service in Italy in 1527,
they again named it the "Black Band". The Venetian paid mercenaries were
called the "white band", if I remember my Arfaioli correct. Both would
perish to famine and sickness before Naples, though in this case the
survivors were integrated into the Imperial units without the hatred that
made Pavia such a bad affair.


Germans, Swiss and Low Country 'duitslanders' were all Germans as far as the rest of Europe was concerned back then.
Only modern army list compilers draw a distinction.

Contemporary Swiss, Gelderlanders, Frisians, Saxonians or Swabians also drew that distinction, though most saw themself more or less as Germans. They just had different allegiances, especially regarding the Empire and the Emperor. Especially the Swiss - who had given the Imperial call by Friedrich for war against Charles the Bold in 1475 as a reason (though more a pretext) for their declaration of war - considered themself independent. This view was more or less shared by the
Emperor and Empire after the Swabian war of 1499, a pretty bloody affair.


'Black Band' is as common a name for a mercenary company as 'city' is for a football team, 
'Bande Nere' Anyone? Possibly in the former they had a single black band on their standard,
Giovanni della Bande Nere had a number of them on his, hence the name being applied.
Not definite of course, but possible.

The "Black Guard" of 1494-1500 called itself the "Grote" (large) or sometimes "German" guard after its creation (to differ it from the Welsch (French/Burgund), English or Italians), and allegedly used the "Black" only after Wiwolt von Schaumburg (acting for Albrecht, the Duke of Saxony) paid them once with mainly black clothing.

The 1514 Guard was probably called "Black" in remembrance to the first unit, when the new Duke of Saxony created it. At the same time he created a "White" guard from local recruits, but that one never had the same military renown as the "Black" guard that included veteran warbands in his service, most likely many individualy among them who did serve in the first band.
That said, "black" was a usual distinguishing name - probably not as "city", but as
"lion" or "guard". There were several other "black" units around, from the dissolved
black army of Corvinus up to small groups with revolutionary background.


Offline Stuart

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 857
    • Army Royal
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2015, 05:04:10 PM »
Wow, thanks for the encyclopaedic response !

I don't think I'm best qualified to fill in the pre 1525 gaps in your knowledge.

Have you any black bands in figure form?

Stuart

Offline Arlequín

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 6218
  • Culpame de la Bossa Nova...
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2015, 07:02:41 PM »
Indeed an epic and extremely interesting response, thank you.  :)

... but where does Floris van Roozemond fit into all this?    ;)

Offline Gangleri

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 342
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2015, 08:21:49 PM »
Pole's brother John, according to Fox-Davies' Heraldic Badges used; "Lyon of gold the Kewe
forched" [MS. 2nd M. 16, Coll. Arms] in 1475.

I believe Fox-Davies gives the lion as a badge for John the father rather than John the brother (i.e. Suffolk rather than Lincoln. Lincoln's personal arms, however, (which can be seen here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_de_la_Pole,_1st_Earl_of_Lincoln) are the same as his father's, but with a cadet label, so perhaps the younger brothers used the same, changing brisures (or ignoring cadency altogether) as the preceding males died.

I am working on some speculative alternate banners for my Stoke Field project, and I'm happy to share them if they're of interest to you all.
Now what is this whole life of mortals but a sort of comedy, in which the various actors, disguised by various costumes and masks, walk on and play each one his part, until the manager waves them off the stage?

http://stokefield.blogspot.com/

http://wellrallyonceagain.blogspot.com/

Offline Stuart

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 857
    • Army Royal
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2015, 08:26:21 PM »
Definitely, I love your Schwarz banners.

Offline puster

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 38
Re: War of the Roses C. 1515
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2015, 11:11:17 PM »
Sorry for the lengthy reply - I got carried away :-)
The history of the Black Band is some kind of pet project of mine - after I realized during a history project that the town I live in now was plundered by A black band in 1515, and then realized that this is the same Black Band of Marignano fame.


I am working on some speculative alternate banners for my Stoke Field project, and I'm happy to share them if they're of interest to you all.

I once heard the idea that the "Black" in Black guard came from Martin Schwartz, as his name means Black in German. Untrue, in all likelyness, as the "Black" only shows up late.
Apart from that, the coincidence that the Landsknechts were formalized in the same year as the expedition of Schwartz and his band to England is kind of itching with me. I am probably missing some connection...

Ideas or previews of Flags (or other stuff) would be most welcome :-)

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
15 Replies
3512 Views
Last post March 16, 2013, 05:55:35 PM
by 15thpanzer
0 Replies
1282 Views
Last post September 29, 2013, 08:47:03 PM
by Orlock
34 Replies
10922 Views
Last post December 27, 2014, 03:42:47 PM
by archiduque
9 Replies
2672 Views
Last post January 25, 2015, 11:53:29 PM
by von Lucky
3 Replies
1688 Views
Last post October 06, 2015, 08:01:03 PM
by Stuart