A Song of Ice and Fire in 25mm

[Hupp n at em]

I do sometimes wonder a little at some of the representation of banners, heralry and 'sigils' of the minor houses.
I think there are a lot out there which are not based on any description in GRRM's books, but pure invention by people putting content on ASOIAF resource sites like the 'A wiki of Ice and Fire'.
Are these ones (pictured above) your own invention, sukhe_bator, or are they drawn from other sources? (Not criticising - just wondering! )

They generally say whether they are taken from a certain source or purely conjecture on the wiki articles. "Lots of cloaks and banners" seems to be GRRM's preferred aesthetic though, so he does describe quite a few in books. If memory serves, some of the sources listed are even different appearances he has made at Cons and the like, I would guess from some obsessive fan asking about their favorite minor-house minor character. 

[Charlie_]

Yes, the books do mention the sigils quite a lot. There are a lot of scenes when characters are 'banner spotting' at a tournament, army camp or such.... Lots of "he saw the silver eagle of House Mallister, the blue towers of House Frey and the weirdwood of House Blackwood", and such things....

On a side note, a lot of the heraldry GRRM mentions actually sounds seriously ugly!!! Why are so many of them BROWN? Crakehall is a brindled boar on a BROWN field.... Darry is a black plowman on a BROWN field.... etc.... It's a tricky colour to get to look good! Black on brown... seriously?

 

[commissarmoody]

And this is why I am thinking of doing House Manderly for some Hornwood war action.

[sukhe_bator]

I have used some of the ASOIAF Wiki ideas for the banners, but since I tend to draw and paint my own banners they will inevitably be my own take on them. However like all my LoTR modelling I have also referred to the books for the sigils, and appearance of the troops - like the Frey troops in silver grey cloaks and blued steel mail.
The quite obvious use of American and more exotic fauna such as moose, lizard-lions (alligators) and the manticore (scorpion) in heraldry is a giveaway to the author's origins. I agree GRRM's heraldry is a little kookie at times, but we must also bear in mind a) its a Fantasy epic tale, b) there's the popularist blending of livery badges and banners and Martin uses popular terms rather than heraldic ones for the tinctures. He does combine colours that would make a herald cringe, but a lot of medieval heraldic terms are more than simple plays on words. They feature odd emblems and extinct tools that would be familiar in a medieval context but difficult to explain in a novel. Some emblems also became popular at different times - like Louis XII's use of the porcupine - which only came about after descriptions of such animals were brought back by explorers to the New World. If you want to have fun you need only look at how medieval carpenters, sculptors and manuscript illuminators have depicted exotic animals like giraffe and elephant based on descriptions in medieval bestiaries.
There are also some cringeworthy fantasy twists - I personally can't imagine Roose Bolton wearing a pink woolen cloak embroidered with red spots of blood, or Victarion Greyjoy wearing a lobed cloak like the tentacles of a Kraken. Hey ho - that's just me.

[Charlie_]

In regards to House Bolton, I actually really like the idea of their pink being a really light, faded sort of pink. Certainly not shocking pink though!

[Captain Blood]

There are also some cringeworthy fantasy twists - I personally can't imagine Roose Bolton wearing a pink woolen cloak embroidered with red spots of blood, or Victarion Greyjoy wearing a lobed cloak like the tentacles of a Kraken. Hey ho - that's just me.

Yep. I am painting some more Boltons right now, and I can tell you that a red device upon a pink field is as rubbish a recipe for heraldry as you can ever imagine (unless he comes up with a white cat in a snowstorm in books 6 and 7... )
 

[Hupp n at em]

Yep. I am painting some more Boltons right now, and I can tell you that a red device upon a pink field is as rubbish a recipe for heraldry as you can ever imagine (unless he comes up with a white cat in a snowstorm in books 6 and 7... )
 

Do you mean it is hard to pull off in miniature form? Or that it is an impossible combo according to the rules of historical heraldry? Admittedly been a while since I oggled your Boltons. 

[Captain Blood]

I just mean it's hard to make out because there is so little contrast between red and pink - which is why it would never be used in real heraldry.

[Dilettante Gamer]

I just mean it's hard to make out because there is so little contrast between red and pink - which is why it would never be used in real heraldry.

Total violation of heraldic principles for the practical reason cited. Still, it is fantasy, not a recreation.

[Dilettante Gamer]

I've been out of it for so long Mr J and my mojo has taken a thorough hammering this last year.
With so much of my father's stuff in the house to sort through I'm really pushed for space. No further building progress has been made. I have made a conscious design choice that ASOIAF scenery should be reusable in my LoTR gaming.
I have made a start on designing some Westerosi stone and timber houses based on European chalet style bastles with a Russian timber look after scanning the 'art of' books of the Hobbit films. The conceptual art by John Howe et al is seriously good and they do their homework. I'm tinkering with wooden shingles and roofs with a view to doing a C15 inspired Inn with stables.

ATM though I'm doing a serious overhaul of my GoT figures with a view to knuckling down and painting... maybe soon 

SB - I can identify thoroughly with this post. So much RL intruded shortly after I started my Dux Westerosum/Stag & Lion Rampant project that it's been a long crawl to get my mojo back. But it's building - focused on terrain to get going. I'll post here and reanimate my blog to reinforce my nascent momentum.

[Hupp n at em]

SB - I can identify thoroughly with this post. So much RL intruded shortly after I started my Dux Westerosum/Stag & Lion Rampant project that it's been a long crawl to get my mojo back. But it's building - focused on terrain to get going. I'll post here and reanimate my blog to reinforce my nascent momentum.

Please do! I'd love to see what you've done. 

 

I just mean it's hard to make out because there is so little contrast between red and pink - which is why it would never be used in real heraldry.

Total violation of heraldic principles for the practical reason cited. Still, it is fantasy, not a recreation.

Okay yeah, and seeing you say that, I imagine that will go doubly for myself as I am not even sniffing your level of painting anytime soon.  Makes me think doing the TV show Bolton colors might be a wise choice...

[sukhe_bator]

Well, my mojo is returning slowly, thanks in no small part to the support and encouragement of you guys out there. Thankfully I have a good number of figures with at least a lick of paint on them so I'm rejigging the numbers and concentrating on painting them, one house at a time. Dillettante Gamer, I'm finding I dissipated my previous enthusiasm by thinking on too large a scale. Focussing on smaller achievable projects is definitely the key...

I now have a core Riverlands warband assembled on my desk atm (one major house and 3 affiliated houses). In this case House Tully, Bracken, Vance and Mallister. I have opted for a basic block of 4 archers and 4 MAA (bill or pike) per house, with a bannerman and foot captain each. Since captains and standards are primarily for effect I may cost them separately and use them for command and control depending on the rules... I am tempted by reports of Lion/Dragon Rampant. 
Each warband will have in addition a musician in overlord colours (in this case Tully), any associated personalities, Brynden 'Blackfish' for example, and at least 1 mounted knight per house. To this I can add further houses, Mercs, sellswords as I so desire.

This should give each core warband a smallish unit of horse, and at least one 'battle' or ward of MAA and two flanking battles of archers. All in each core warband will be approx. 50 figures strong. If I have any figures left over at the end I may increase the proportion of archers.

I'm going to have to do some serious recruiting among the Westerlands in order for House Lannister et al not to be overwhelmed - In all the equivalent of 2 or more Lannister 'armies'. I can increase the unit sizes slightly, add more mercs and crossbowmen but would really like to include more Westerling houses. More research will be required.

As for Ser Roose's costumary, I may experiment, but I think Charlie is onto something. I may follow the good Captain and experiment with a pale pink and possibly ruby red for 'blood' in stylised droplets...

Hupp n at em -  Heraldry 101 is the rule that applies to tinctures;
metal should not be put on metal, nor colour on colour. This means that Or and argent (gold and silver, which are represented by yellow and white) may not be placed on each other. There are however notable exceptions like the Kingdom of Jerusalem which is gold crosses on silver but gets away with it because of it's special significance.
Nor may any of the colours i.e. azure, gules, sable, vert and purpure (blue, red, black, green and purple) be placed on another colour.
Heraldic furs (i.e. ermine, vair and their variants) as well as "proper" (a charge coloured as it normally is in nature e.g. like a white horse) are exceptions to the rule of tincture. GRRM's Crakehall 'brindled boar on brown' does not seem too far fetched, though personally I plan to make the boar darker brown with paler flecks and replace brown with tawny (an orangy tan colour).

I kinda like some of the apocryphal backstories behind historical heraldry - My favourite being that of Aragon. Ramón Berenguer, Count of Barcelona, supposedly wiped his fingers down his yellow shield after a particularly bloody battle fighting the moors and thereafter it became "Or with five pales Gules" – gold with five red stripes. It has a kinda ring of truth to it. After all, the adoption of furs was supposedly after the practice of tacking pelt strips to shields to differentiate between close relations in a particular family.

[Charlie_]

GRRM's Crakehall 'brindled boar on brown' does not seem too far fetched, though personally I plan to make the boar darker brown with paler flecks and replace brown with tawny (an orangy tan colour).

Yes, they can easily be adapted to look better. Having a light brown or tawny will work wonders, you are right.
A lot of the ones you see on AWoIaF pages haven't been done that well, I feel. The colours are all too vivid and clash horribly. But just be toning down the colours, making some of them paler, they can work wonderfully. For example, House Frey is two blue towers on grey, and whenever I see it both the blue and grey seem quite dark, and it appears quite murky. I think having a dark blue on a very light grey would look great though!!

[sukhe_bator]

I get where you're coming from Charlie. I have a copy of the Oxford encyclopedia of heraldry which has some reproductions of early armorials. Copying the charges and blazons etc can give a wonderfully medieval feel to the shields...

And colour modification is precisely what I've gone for with my House Frey. The only snag is having applied a peat brown ink for lowlights and shading I'm going to have to reconstruct the nice pale grey I experimented with and perfected all over again!

[Hupp n at em]

Yes, they can easily be adapted to look better. Having a light brown or tawny will work wonders, you are right.
A lot of the ones you see on AWoIaF pages haven't been done that well, I feel. The colours are all too vivid and clash horribly. But just be toning down the colours, making some of them paler, they can work wonderfully. For example, House Frey is two blue towers on grey, and whenever I see it both the blue and grey seem quite dark, and it appears quite murky. I think having a dark blue on a very light grey would look great though!!

Yeah I had similar thoughts on the Crakehalls, as there is no way they are getting left out of my Lannister army.