Ambush skill and CON 8+... game breaking, can this be fixed?

[Bergh]

After an nice evening with some friends where we tried different combinations of both threshold and lurkers. there was one two things which came up and made us wondering.

first its the Ambush Skill: "The model is considered Alert, even after taking action".
This skill is simply too good, easily the best skill in the game. And worse is when you equip all your agents + Character with this skill from the start, it changes the whole flow of the game, and really there are no way of getting around this.
possible fix 1: Only one model in each threshold team may have this skill.
Possible fix 2: Alert shooting (after actions) only works on 4+ when using this skill.

second it very high toughness lurkers, like Con 8 + maybe light or heavy armour, or possible Thich Skin on top of that.
Its not really funny playing with and against models who on most purposes can't die.
I played a game with .45 and tommy gun armed threshold team (damage D6+2).
Meet a T8 human with armour.... he took out the tommy gun first and then he was almost immortal.... its did kinda ruin the experience.
My opponent also said "sad for the game that one stat ruins the game this much"
Possible fix? lower the maximum toughness of humans atleast I think.

[Cherno]

Ambush is only good up to 10 inches, isn't it? So get some longer range weapons and flank

[Bergh]

Ambush is only good up to 10 inches, isn't it? So get some longer range weapons and flank

The models with ambush can move and shoot each turn, they are not standing still.
And an threshold agent armed with a blot action rifle + ambush skill can use the rifle in his "normal" action and keep Alert shooting with his .45, try to outflank that. The real problem with ambush is mostly when multiple models have in the same team.

[Mathyoo]

I haven't yet used alert skill, but I can see what you mean. I do have a constitution problem myself. Yesterday I played a game where my character had dual .45s, hollow points and that skill for extra +1 dmg. I even have an elephant gun on one of my agents. The reason is, my brother likes "improve constitution" skill . Yesterday he summoned 15 points demon, not a formless thing but a shambler with +3 con. And  he did that one other day, which is the reason I've got myself all the extra dmg .
The games are really boring, losing a game is one thing, losing a game when you simply dont have a chance, unless you get lucky crits is something else.
I think you can best come around it by players being friendly. Even thought I told him maxing constitution is boring the first game, I think he only realised this yesterday. So a home rule of "no more that 1 or 2 extra constitution" should solve the problem. 8 max con is for humans, but you can get that thought skin, makes it 9, 2 points of armor for 11. Now imagine some monster...say godling with 9/11 con, add 5 for 5 skills, makes it 14/16. Sure it costs 35 points, but there is no weapon that can kill this, all you could do is turn and leave at the table edges.

This game isn't played on tournaments that I am aware of, so playing with the right people is a best solution. So, running a dynamite armed character with lucky idol, hat and lucky skill isn't the most fun for both either

With alert models, I

[Dolmot]

My observations in brief:

Ambush is good but I've found a few factors that might limit its effectiveness:
- New agents and lurkers aren't particularly good shots. They miss a lot, and the alert shot is limited to one die.
- If you add terrain, it's often possible to get into base contact without ever finishing your action in the open.
- You can also use cover. We let models use good firing positions such as behind fences, corners and trees so that the terrain doesn't block their shots but it does affect the opponents. Under that convention, you can move behind a fence and shoot thrice with your Thompson while the alert model must hit with his one die and beat the 4+ cover.

Constitution is indeed useful for survival. However...
- Note that each point of AP in your weapon does reduce the "soft" CON acquired from armour. This isn't very clear in my printing but it has been answered on these forums.
- Lurkers may only adjust one characteristic by buying skills. We treat it as "only one point of increment/decrement altogether".

Anyway, the game tends to break quickly from heavy skill/model/equipment-spamming. Some overpowered choices have their countering options but if you take that route, about 80% of items and skills are not a part of the countering circle and thus remain unused. That's why we treat the game as role playing and dice rolling rather than an exercise of finding the most abusive combo. A group of meat cleaver agents with extra attacks fighting the same +CON lurkers all the time becomes too boring too fast.

[smokezombie]

I'm not an expert here but heres my 2cents.

Shambles with 3 points spent on con, as said previously, is not allowed. Only one point on any one characteristic increase.
Dynamite seems like a good option for any high con Lurker,at  d+5 with AP 2 it wouldn't take much to wound a shambler even if it had +1con upgrade.

As for the ambush threshold teams, perhaps taking a fast moving lurker like a winged nightmare, at M10 with hover this means he's 25 inches into a 36 inch table after his first turn, 35 if you use his heroic.

Do you swap playing threshold and lurkers? This seems like a good way to make people play in the spirit of fun?

[superflytnt]

This reminds me of the Space Hulk "Are Genestealers too tough" argument. It's a dice game, and therefore you're always at Lady Luck's mercy, and sometimes she's just a real slag.

I always have an Agent with a big gun, so to speak, and the Armor Piercing skill because of things like this. Since my opponent gets to choose their lists after I do, I'm always going to be at the disadvantage because (s)he will already be familiar with my list, and therefore can bring out bruisers that can soak up the damage.

I've done pretty well with an Elephant Gun and the Armor Piercing Skill. My wife really enjoys using her "Vincent Vega" character with a .30MG and Armor Piercing. Just Friday night she got behind a wall and just laid me wide open. There wasn't much cover and she was turning my armored cultists into red pudding.  I had a Conglomorate who got all the way up to her gunnery crew and I went after the weaker to stop her from having that second man on the gun, but she ended up dual-.45ing the piss out of it.

I never even put a single wound on any of her figures.  Sometimes you're the fly, sometimes you're the windshield.

[Bergh]

Thanks for your answers.

I'm happy most people see the CON problem, Lurkers can take +Con upgrade then add Thick Skin (+1 Con, and can top already maxed stats) also. They then ofcourse have Tough, as that is a requisite for Thick Skin. So +2 CON and -2 on injury roll on lurkers are +3BP, adding that to some of the larger lurkers or indeed just humans really makes things awkward, and breaks the game IMHO when "normal" weapons gets useless.
I'm aware of that some players like playing games in "superhero-mode", where its fun to have stuff who only can get hurt by a ton of dynamite and hit directly by an burning air plane. But please I want a more grown up game, when default gaming mode is that normal agent weapons becomes useless you loose the feel of the game entirely.

I'm abit more worried that people don't see the Ambush Skill problem. Please make an threshold team (or lurker team) with them all having Ambush skill, and tell me how your games then becomes. I know you can make extreme measures like M10+Heroic creatures, but then again is kills the entire feel and flow of the game, that you only encounter the same "extreme build"-lurker again and again.
You can ofcourse double up on terrain and enhance cover saves (btw, 4+ cover save is for Trenches and such, I would say normal wooded fences give a 6+ save, possible 5+ in the best case). Also by filling the table with so much line of sight blocking terrain that you easily get "normal" models with 4-6" move into close combat without the possibility of Alert fire, also wreck the feel of the game IMHO, if someone plays at such tables please send me a photo, must be a pain to play on.
 
Im 100% into friendly games, and as I told earlier, the +2 CON + Heavy armour player, when he discovered what he had done just said
"sad for the game that one stat ruins the game this much", and my other friend suggested to remove the Ambush skill altogether, and it wrecks one off the best mechanics in the game.

The Nomination system + Alert fire rule, is what makes Strange Aeons its own game.
 
    

[superflytnt]

But Bergh, it's like this: If you give them ambush, the only thing it buys is that they can take a free shot on their turn against enemies in LOS who take an action...but they could do that anyhow if they weren't activated. The alert shot assumes...

They're within 10" and LOS of an activated enemy at the end of their activation
The player on alert/ambush has a gun capable of hitting the enemy
The gun is not a "ready" gun or crew-served gun

So, it only applies to figures within what is 2" over the miniumum weapons range in Strange Aeons. It also is a crippled shot because you only get one die on Alert shots. Because you spent your Free Skill on Ambush, you're at 4+ or 5+ DEX, meaning you have a 50% or 33% chance of even scoring a hit with that single die.

It's not all that great a skill because it assumes that your guy will be activated every turn. If you have a small list, sure, but then you lose out on other skills. On a bigger list, it's not really useful because your civilians (or agents) aren't good shots to begin with, and they likely aren't going to be activated every turn anyhow. Alert is a free "skill" so all Ambush does is allow your activated characters to have it. That's not game breaking at all....it is simply a proxy for a larger list, since if you had 6 guys and moved 3 per turn in groups of 2, you'd always have 3 guys who had the alert shot.

But back to CON. I was thinking about your scenario re: CON 8, and that it's achievable. I just realized that if you have a cultist with spellcasting, you can cast "Bless" on that same CON 8 lurker and bump that up to a 9. At a 9, it would be virtually impossible to kill him with anything but rolling a die with multiple damage dice, plus a big damage bonus, plus armor piercing. And then you're rolling 6's too.

[Bergh]

Having the option of moving into position and then be ready for an alert short is quite great, especially in scenarios where you have a time limit or have to reach an objective. Being able to move fast and still have the option to be dangerous to the opponent is quite an tactical advantage.

I don't think you understand the mechanics of the nominations/Action system if you don't understand the advantage of your model being able to move into position with the first action and then the next shoot at your opponent. Then the opponent either shoots back or moves into range with another model, then you alert shoot back. Ambush skills is almost giving your models a half extra turn, especially in a shoot out.
I could come up with examples on how to (mis-)use the system, and its just goes crazy when you have whole teams with Ambush.
Like your opponent, moves 1 important model into range, then your whole team alert fires on that model,

All agent's come equiped with .45 hand gun for free, which have 1 shot and D6+2 damage.
Even if I in my "normal" actions use my elephant gun, I can just use my .45 for Alert fire, whats the problem with not having a gun capable of hitting the enemy? and crippled shot? it have a rate of fire of 1 already with the .45.

I always use lists of 3-5 models, and of course my next skill will be +1 DEX, this was for a starter team.

EDIT: Harsh language.

[Mathyoo]

Personally, I would never take any one skill on more than one model, except for -dex. There are simply so many differnet skills to try, it gets boring if you use same ones over and over. I was trying to not use -dex, but hit on 5 is too bad for someone with a tommy gun!

 I think you could find holes in every game and best thing against multiple ambush models is to simply not use the skill, if you know what I mean. There are way too many things that you could abuse, to really try and fix them all.

Also, thanks for clarifiying the +con guys, I KNEW I've read somewhere lurkers are limited in skill selection!

[Bergh]

I think you could find holes in every game and best thing against multiple ambush models is to simply not use the skill, if you know what I mean. There are way too many things that you could abuse, to really try and fix them all.

No worries mathyoo, im myself a casual player, and as mentioned earlier my gaming buddies also play casual.
I just got a bit irritated when people just deny that the game can be broken.

[smokezombie]

I just wanted to say I totally mixed up the ambush skill for the sneaky skill. Sorry, I wasn't paying attention properly.

I think saying its broken is a bit strong. Tho it might need a house rule if you find your group over using it. Perhaps one per team as was already suggested.  It's not a perfect game.. but then I've never played a game that is perfect. It is one of the most fun and characterfull tho. Definitely a game to be played for fun and with a good narrative.
I hope your group comes up with a good fix so you can keep enjoying the game.

[Bergh]

I just wanted to say I totally mixed up the ambush skill for the sneaky skill. Sorry, I wasn't paying attention properly.

no worries, the Movement 10 dude skill have a punch.
You made me thinking about a whole Threshold team with Sneaky, that would be fun, and quite "gamebreaking" for some scenarios, and quite useless for most scenarios.
The advantage of having your whole team starting in base to base contact with the objective in scenarios like "The bad place" or "destroy the doomsday device", and several other scenarios.

[superflytnt]

Bergh, the "Nominaton/Alert" system isn't new. Not remotely. There's about a bazillion games that use this. So, if you think that the idea of returning fire to interrupt a turn is new, and what makes this game "unique" you need to re-evaluate your grasp on tabletop gaming.

There's a 20 year old or so game called Space Hulk. You get action points in the game, and you get to activate all of your side (if you're playing one side, the other NEVER gets to do "alert shots") and you can spend the equivalent of one gunshot to put your character on Alert (it's called Overwatch) there. And that's one of MANY. Tannhauser, Incursion, and many, many, many other games use an "Alert" mechanic allowing interrupts. The whole idea that Ambush breaks the game is absurd. Let's just quash that right there.

Now, let's talk more about CON. The CON is troubling, because it's impossible to cause a wound to a target with a CON of 10, which is attainable.

A Night Stalker with a base CON of 8, plus Tough, plus Thick Skin, that has been blessed with "Bless CON" would not violate any rules and would have a CON of 10. A Shambler is a bad example because so many skills have AP which negates its armor value, but creatures with a native CON 8 can literally be made invincible by any weapon other than dynamite, and on a Critical Hit alone.

So, you'd have to roll three consecutive sixes using dynamite in order to put a single wound on a Lurker with a CON of 10 and Tough due to the fact you'd need to roll 3 points over 10 to get one wound on him.

The only fix to that would be if someone blessed that dynamite, which would give an extra +2. Technically, many other weapons would become viable were they blessed, but still, the circumstances of being able to cause a hit are ridiculously narrow. That's a broken part.

The very simple fix is the one that I use at home: Only human and humanoid lurkers can be given skills.