Scavenge Skirmish Survive

[akodo]

A weapon's value lies in the ability of its user, regardless of the size of the bullet. Speaking for myself, I'm just as wary of being hit by a .22 round as I am by a 7.62mm, even though I know the difference and their capabilities.

Go too deep into all this and you have to consider whether the ammo is factory-made or home-made, then what propellant has been substituted and so on. I always liked the Two Hour Wargames's differentiation between 'pistol' and 'big-ass pistol' etc. So what you're going for pretty much covers it for me.

I don't want to get shot by a 22, OR a 30 cal OR get a punch in the face.

But I expect a game to not treat all 3 of these threats equally.

Yes, you can get 'lost in the details' trying to describe the subtle differences between 7.62 NATO round and some guy's home-loaded 303.  But the truth is you can easily group firearms into families based on potency and performance.

For all intents and purposes, all standard handguns can be clumped together, and all centerfire rifles can be clumped together and all the small rimfires can be clumped together, and all shotguns can be clumped together.

Yes, you can probably suggest some very rare examples that would seem to fall outside these categories (500 Smith and Wesson in the handgun category, 410 in the shotgun category) but as said, they are rare.

Shotguns are distinct enough from the others that they should have their own rule in ANY system, but it isn't necessary to try and detail the differences between  12 gauge, 16 gauge, or 20 gauge.   Same with standard handguns, center-fire rifles, and 22s.




And definitely a pointy end on the sticks

[Elk101]

 when we were kids the ultimate weapon was a pointy stick with dog shit on the end. It could be used as a ranged bio-weapon and then in melee after the 'warhead' had been delivered. You didn't want to get poked with the shitty end.

Don't even get me started on the properties of the different dog turds. 

Back on topic, I'm finding the firearms discussion pretty fascinating having had no real experience with guns other than firing the odd shotgun. I can imagine that in a nuclear winter environment firearms and suitable ammunition would be a valued commodity  that would be carefully husbanded. Given the discretion many groups would wish to maintain I would also imagine they would only use them when they really had to for fear of attracting undue attention. I could see them being given to trusted capable individuals in most sensible groups (and this is purely a UK perspective here) while they cover  others who may have hand weapons or be unarmed (you wouldn't want to be though). Bows and crossbows could be very useful in competent hands. Not the same ranges by a long shot but relatively silent with retrievable ammo (potentially). I believe Malamute suggested them some pages back too.

[Marauderman]

Hey Steve ( Silent Invader ), any more updates about if you have made a choice to use LeadFree Pewter or a lead alloy mix on your miniatures. Also do you have a web site that takes  paypal payments for your miniatures when they are ready for sale.

[CptJake]

I guess I fall into the 'guns is guns' category for rules.  In most rules systems I know of (and all the ones I am interested in), what is being modeled is whether or not a hit from the projectile(s) hurts the target enough that it is no longer effective.  Where that is a few .22 magnum hollowpoints making all kinds of havoc as they come apart and ricochet through your body as they hit bone, or whether it is a 7.62 x 54mm round that blows a fist sized chunk of brains and skull out of the back of your head.  

If I want to model specific ballistic effects I'll be doing something other than miniatures gaming.   I just don't need the hassle of the details.  I know others WANT those details and that is fine.

As I look at these figures I develop a picture of the game world.  In it, these figures are not hardened combat vets who cary significant wounds and still drive on to their ranger objective in time to rescue the world and win the girl before the closing credits.  Instead, they are civilians trying to stay alive in a world where life sucks, but beats the alternative.  Even a small cut cna get infected and that kills.  The folks in this world understand that.   They get hit by a blast of OO buck, a 9mm hydroshock, or a .308, or even a .22 long rifle, I suspect the fight goes out of them and in game terms they are incapacitated.  The shock of having your body very painfully violated by a chunk of metal is gonna put them down for the most part.  

As long as chances to hit are decently modeled (so a rifle has a better chance at 100m than a handgun for example) I'm happy not differentiating between a ton of bullet sizes.  

[Elk101]

I think I'm of the same mindset as CptJake with this. I like tables as much as the next guy but I don't really want to have to look up ten to have a figure shoot something. 

That's not to say there can't be scope for detail in the firearms used, I can't have been the only one left underwhelmed by the Bolt Action approach to firearms! Some flavour is good. There's no harm in a penalty for homemade ammo, etc. for example.

[Arlequín]

Back on topic, I'm finding the firearms discussion pretty fascinating having had no real experience with guns other than firing the odd shotgun. I can imagine that in a nuclear winter environment firearms and suitable ammunition would be a valued commodity  that would be carefully husbanded. Given the discretion many groups would wish to maintain I would also imagine they would only use them when they really had to for fear of attracting undue attention. I could see them being given to trusted capable individuals in most sensible groups (and this is purely a UK perspective here) while they cover  others who may have hand weapons or be unarmed (you wouldn't want to be though). Bows and crossbows could be very useful in competent hands. Not the same ranges by a long shot but relatively silent with retrievable ammo (potentially). I believe Malamute suggested them some pages back too.

This is something where the US and the rest of the World has some common ground.  

I think you have the right of it, at least regarding the most potentially successful groups at least.

You will find two extreme types of people. There are those shrewd and sensible types who carefully husband every round, don't use a bullet where a trap, arrow, knife or pointy stick will do just as well, or better. At the other extreme there are those who will just get carried off in the moment and just shoot shit up for the fun of it. Guns have an odd effect on people, some get a feeling of power or empowerment by wielding one, for others it's just the novelty of shooting (which oddly doesn't really wear off, or is that just me?).

Obviously the latter types will run short of ammo very quickly. Most people will fall somewhere on the spectrum between the two extremes. There's also the need to gain some basic familiarity and skill amongst those not used to guns (or bows), which of course uses up ammo too. Most survivor groups will have to find a balance, although odds are that status within the gun-happy group will be based on weapon ownership anyway, so training the untrained won't be an issue that arises.

Cpt Jake is right though, where there is an option which allows survival and/or withdrawal, most people hit by pretty much anything (catapult shot even), will opt to fight another day, or at least go down and take little further part in things. Some people don't even need that much encouragement. Degree of desperation is the only real modifier to consider.

Heroes are actually quite exceptional, which is why they give out medals for it. For most people, just gun fire alone, let alone a near-miss, is enough to get them motivated to be somewhere else entirely.

I think I'm of the same mindset as CptJake with this. I like tables as much as the next guy but I don't really want to have to look up ten to have a figure shoot something.  

That's not to say there can't be scope for detail in the firearms used, I can't have been the only one left underwhelmed by the Bolt Action approach to firearms! Some flavour is good. There's no harm in a penalty for homemade ammo, etc. for example.

As Akodo mentions above, stuff usually falls into a few general categories and I doubt SI will go for overly complicated in any case. I don't know if there are any specific scavenging rules on the cards (I imagine there would be in a game called 'Scavenge, Skirmish and Survive' though), so your 'groups' may have a limited ammo reserve upon which to draw on, leaving the player to decide whether the potential for gain outweighs the need to conserve. This would of course be more relevant in a 'campaign' setting (hint!).

 

[Elk101]

I like the 'hint' Arlequin and will add a 'nudge nudge'! A campaign setting sounds brilliant. I very much like Silent Invader's approach to all of this.

[Marauderman]

Thanks Steve ( Silent Invader ), I've started putting a little extra bit of money a side in preperation of your great miniatures release. Thanks for the web link to the  web site that will be selling your Miniatures.

[Arlequín]

... the opportunity to play test and/an take aat du tex speak and rhyming slang wots in it innit.

I've started already... 

I'm up for some proof-reading at your leisure, just shout out when you're ready for that and I'll drop you a PM. 

[akodo]

As I look at these figures I develop a picture of the game world.  In it, these figures are not hardened combat vets who cary significant wounds and still drive on to their ranger objective in time to rescue the world and win the girl before the closing credits.  Instead, they are civilians trying to stay alive in a world where life sucks, but beats the alternative.  Even a small cut cna get infected and that kills.  The folks in this world understand that.   They get hit by a blast of OO buck, a 9mm hydroshock, or a .308, or even a .22 long rifle, I suspect the fight goes out of them and in game terms they are incapacitated.  The shock of having your body very painfully violated by a chunk of metal is gonna put them down for the most part.  

One thing to think about.  In a nice civilized world it's one thing to turn tail at a threat and run...but in a post-apocalyptic setting running away from the fight can be just as deadly as the gunshot.   These scavengers are going after something important.  It may be food, it may be medicine, whatever.  But it is important.

Yes, they aren't combat vets.  But the only group that is LESS likely to run when threatened are the absolutely desperate people  (especially if there is a mob of them)

You peek over that snowy rock and see an enemy dragging a box of penicillin out of a downed helicopter.  He's got a 22.  You have a son dying and this penicillin could save him.  You also have an axe handle.

Very different set of 'equations' to compute than a robber who threatens an old women for her paycheck but rethinks his choice when she pulls a 22.

[CptJake]

I'm not sure what part of my post indicated I thought folks would choose to run.  I tried to say I don't think they have a lot of fight in them once shot, and that they will be wary of getting shot, knowing that dialing 911 won't bring a team of EMTs ready to transport you to a well staffed and stocked hospital.

And in your example, the smart dad isn't jumping over his rock and charging the gun armed guy with his axe handle.  He is going to figure out a way to engage the guy where the gun is at a disadvantage due to proximity and surprise.  Otherwise sick son is also an orphan.

[v_lazy_dragon]

~ I am still awaiting the masters for the first 16 but they should be ready within the week, which means that we won't make a January release.  Disappointing I know (for me too as I really want to roll this out).
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=42961.15

Thats ok by me - I gave into temptation and bought some more figures to convert into winter gear, so next month will coincide with the coffers being topped up!  On a serious note, looking forward to seeing them when-ever they arrive

[CptJake]

Can you do the rucks with a hollow/indentation to cut weight?   That would be hidden if put on a figures back or even strapped to the side of a vehicle.  It could also be quickly filled with putty if for some reason you were going to show that side...

[akodo]

I feel great kinship for your cold-weather miniatures.

Yesterday a town in my state got down to -38F

[Thunderchicken]

Completely missed this thread, found it through the MiniatureMOJO website.
Good luck with this Steve, website is looking good and next time I need some bits I'll put an order in.