Vehicle scale for modern African wars

[LaserCutCard]

Hi there

I'm thinking about producing some vehicle models for bush war games. I don't play any of these games myself and was wondering what scale most of them are at... specifically what vehicle scales are used.

Could anyone point me to what games are most popular?

Kind regards
Neal

[The Travelling Man]

I think you'll get answers based on the individual respondent's personal choice of scale- plus LAF is primarily a 28mm oriented forum (ask on the Guild and you'll hear 20mm for instance).  

I would say in sales volume it's 15mm in first place thanks to the widespread popularity of the AK47 Republic rules by Peter Pig- I know people who play this who won't touch any other moderns for instance.  Next up would be 20mm due to its historical place as the primary scale for post WW2 platoon/skirmish stuff up until relatively recently (and the widespread availability of both miniatures and vehicles- far more than in any other scale bar perhaps 1/285) followed finally by 28mm which looks great but unless you're gaming in a warehouse, any more than a few vehicles is going to look very cramped.  

The main rules used for modern Africa in my experience are AK47 Republic, Disposable Heroes (who have a very good Rhodesia supplement) and Force on Force (who also have a very good Bush War specific scenario book).  As stated, AK47 is generally played in 15mm supported by the Peter Pig miniature line and Disposable Heroes and Force on Force in all three- 15mm, 20mm and 28mm (which equates to 1/100, 1/72 and 1/56 or 1/60 or thereabouts- there has never been broad agreement on which scale best fits 28mm figures).  

28mm might actually be your best option commercially as it has the most gaps in coverage- certainly not in terms of volume (you'll sell far more 15mm or 20mm) but in terms of customer uptake.  

Hope this assists.

[carlos marighela]

Inclined to agree with everything said so far. If you want to  start a range you might be better off looking at vehicles to suit 28mm figures. Both 15mm and 20mm are already pretty well served in terms of available models. Beyond the plastic kits and innumerable die casts there are plenty of specialist manufacturers like S&S, Red Star/Liberation, Peter Pig, etc, etc.  28mm is not so well served.  With the exception of the odd bits and pieces most of the stuff I have is die cast.  Whilst the gaps are large, you would do well to look at what available ranges there are for figures. Not my bag but from what I can tell poking around on various forums, there would probably be some enthusiasm for some of the of fbeat Rhodesian vehicles and those would have a potential Sci-fi cross over marker.

Personally I'd be very pleased if someone made more Landies and some bits and pieces to support my Portuguese, like a Chaimite.

[Michi]

Hi there

I'm thinking about producing some vehicle models for bush war games. I don't play any of these games myself and was wondering what scale most of them are at... specifically what vehicle scales are used.

Could anyone point me to what games are most popular?

Kind regards
Neal

I´d prefer 1/60 scale for 28mm.
Reo M35
MAN 630
Unimog 404
Unimog 416
CJ5 Jeep
LR 88 Land Rover
Toyota BJ40
Ford M151

[LaserCutCard]

Thanks guys - I really appreciate it. I'll take a look at the recommended sites and keep you in the loop. Is this the correct forum to post any concept / WIP shots in?

[Arlequín]

1960s-1970s Southern Africa (Angola/Rhodesia/Mozambique) is one of my periods, so I would of course also be interested. I'm more than happy with the posting of concept/WIP shots on here.  

I would say that the gap in the market is also 28mm... or 1/56, or 1/60, whatever you want to call it (I prefer 1/55  ). I could give you a long list of vehicles, some of which are quite basic types (as Michi has already listed), but which aren't produced anywhere (with exceptions, as Carlos mentions, that are hard to find, or expensive die-casts).

I will echo Travelling Man's point though - few 28mm gamers will want multiples of any one type of vehicle, in the quantities 20mm and 15mm gamers would. I might buy four or so jeeps, light trucks and personnel carriers, but only one or two armoured cars or tanks.

On the plus side and especially in the 'Bush Wars' era, there is little competition.

*Edit* - I'll throw my hat into the arena too, as besides the ones Carlos and Michi mentions, I'd like to see:-

Ford and Toyota pick-ups (c.1970s).
Panhard EBR FL.10 Armoured Car.
Panhard EBR VTT Personnel Carrier.
Berliet GBC 8 Truck.

A lesser priority for me, but which I would probably buy and which are also extremely common regionally;

GAZ-69 Jeep.
UAZ-469 Jeep.
GAZ 66 Truck.
URAL-375 Truck.
ZIL-157 Truck.
ZIL-131 Truck.
Bedford RLC Truck.
Bedford MK Truck.
Panhard M3 VTT Personnel Carrier.  
Type 62 Light Tank.
YW531 (Type 63) Personnel Carrier.

[sandsmodels]

we make a uaz 469b in 1/5th scale

mind you the price has changed somewhat!
shaun
s&s models

[joroas]

... and the scale!   

[Col.Stone]

Arlequin, i've got the zil-157 in 28mm at the casters (been there for awhile tho)
Back to topic
I'd love to see a unimog

[Centaur_Seducer]

Arlequin, i've got the zil-157 in 28mm at the casters (been there for awhile tho)
Back to topic
I'd love to see a unimog

PM when you get it, Stoney

[LaserCutCard]

Thanks again all for the input.

If we talk 28mm scale (so something between 1/48 and 1/64) what sort of retail pricing are you expecting for a model? There have been previous references to "very expensive die-cast" but what is very expensive?

Let's take an armoured car or light tank... something of that nature.

I know this is a bit like asking how long is a piece of string, but what sort of price range?

Thanks
Neal

[sandsmodels]

... and the scale!   

yes it is big
sorry I can't type

[carlos marighela]

Diecast price depends on the item.  I have a number of Corgi Saladin armoured cars. They are pretty much spot on 1/55 scale. They required conversion to the gun barrel, some added extras for detail etc, deconstruction and naturally a repaint. Because Corgi produced thousands of them in the 1970s. You can pick up decent usable ones on ebay for between $10 and 20 or much more if you are stupid enough to pay for mint paint and the original cardboard box. Unlikely to make your money back on resin at that price point.

A French Dinky EBR-10 armoured car is usually a more expensive item due to rarity. Expect to pay double for something acceptable. Examples in mint condition usually go for horrendous prices. Solido tanks and armored cars can usually be found for around the $350-35 mark here in Oz.

Me? I have all the Unimogs and Bedford RLs I'm ever likley to need but I'd probably pay $25-30 for a decent truck and around $20 for a GaZ 69. Actually I'd pay more for a GaZ 69 because it's such a useful vehicle and absolutely nobody makes one in a useful scale ( 1/43 is just too big)

[Arlequín]

As a rough guide and being somewhat realistic between what I would be prepared to pay and what I'm likely to be asked to pay...
 
For a resin model, with perhaps metal detail bits, I would expect to pay around R.120 - R.150 (£8-£10) for something the size of a Jeep or Land Rover, R.150 - R.220 (£10-£15) for a small truck, small APC, or armoured car, R.220 - R.300 (£15-£20) for a large truck, large APC, or small tank, R.300 - R.380 (£20-£25) for a tank. I hope I got the conversion right! Particular vehicles will obviously be exceptions to the general categories, but R.120 to R.380 is pretty much the bracket for almost everything for me.

Obviously quality costs and while I might go above these prices on occasion, it becomes more of a question as to whether I really need the more expensive items.

Arlequin, i've got the zil-157 in 28mm at the casters (been there for awhile tho)

we make a uaz 469b in 1/5?th scale

We really need a list on here of stuff that is available... outside of that present day rubbish, that is. I struggle to keep track of who does what nowadays, especially when you guys keep it on a strictly 'need to know' basis.



   

[LaserCutCard]

As a rough guide and being somewhat realistic between what I would be prepared to pay and what I'm likely to be asked to pay...
 
For a resin model, with perhaps metal detail bits, I would expect to pay around R.120 - R.150 (£8-£10) for something the size of a Jeep or Land Rover, R.150 - R.220 (£10-£15) for a small truck, small APC, or armoured car, R.220 - R.300 (£15-£20) for a large truck, large APC, or small tank, R.300 - R.380 (£20-£25) for a tank. I hope I got the conversion right! Particular vehicles will obviously be exceptions to the general categories, but R.120 to R.380 is pretty much the bracket for almost everything for me.

   

Thank you for this. Your currency conversions are (unfortunately) spot on.

I have taken notes of everything here - thanks everyone.