The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Dr.Falkenhayn]

I'm here for you, Cubs. Do you want to talk about what you saw?

  i can totally see the commonalities between the 4 Page AoS Rules and that awfull,insubstantial Movie that is Thor 2   

[YPU]

Reviews of the beta of Warhammer end times: Vermintide have been positive, by the accounts I read its both a fun game and keeps to the lore well enough. For those of you who don't know its a horde survival game, much like left for dead, where you try to make it to a particular objective on a map while fighting your way trough hordes and hordes of skaven. The ratmen provide a pretty mice enemy variety without them having to come up with anything new, and they actually appear to be sticking to ecstatics we are used to, more so then the more dubious stuff that came out in the end times line.

[Cubs]

I'm here for you, Cubs. Do you want to talk about what you saw?

I feel like someone just stole a couple of hours of my life.

Hold me until I stop shaking.

[Cubs]

[Westfalia Chris]

Verily, dear posters, thou art digressing. Prithee focus on discussing Games Workshop and not the follies of other soulless corporate leviathans.

[Ray Rivers]

Warhammer models didn't sell because they got too expensive, and thus ppl played their games with cheaper historical and fantasy minis from alternative companies.

That is one way to explain it... but it goes against the pronounced trend away from mass battle games towards skirmish games. Warhammer, expensive or not, was a mass battle game. Take a look at the forums (of any wargaming site) and see how many AARs are being made by folks playing mass battle fantasy games. Hard to find any really. Now look at how many skirmish batreps are being made... in pretty much EVERY category of wargaming. TONS!

Price doesn't explain that. It is a shift in playing preference on a wide scale.

Now I know everyone loves to beat up on AOS, but have you ever looked at the investment you need to put in to play Infinity?  The same could be said for Drop Zone Commander or Dystopian Wars (and they aren't even 28mm). Want to do some REAL wargaming (say Napoleonics, for example)... you are going to drop a lot of coin.

Now as a successful business man there isn't a day that does go by when I don't have some guy trying to sell me something that is "the same but cheaper." Do I buy it? Fuck no. The reason is because I manage my businesses based on a long term outlook, not short term "did I make money today." Short term management, on the whole, is a guaranteed loser.

Now GW could have introduced the Stormcast Internals in finecast to test the waters. But they didn't, because that is a short term experiment which is doomed from the start. Instead, they wiped the slate clean and took a long term approach. You can tell it is a long term approach because the minis they are putting out are made in plastic, and that is one hell'va investment.

Now you don't think that GW didn't understand that forums would be filled with hate and trolling for their move? Of course they did. But they did it anyway which shows their vision is long term and any really successful company is run that way.

So ya'll can analysis, spit venom and complain as long as you want. Personally, I think they have made, from a professional viewpoint as a businessman, a pretty awesome move. You might not see the result in the coming weeks or months... but any real businessman knows that when you dramatically change direction, your not looking at weeks or months... you are looking at years.

So... I wouldn't expect GW to walk from AOS any time soon.

[Vermis]

The ratmen provide a pretty mice enemy variety

I see what you did there.

(Dark World stuff:   )

That is one way to explain it... but it goes against the pronounced trend away from mass battle games towards skirmish games. Warhammer, expensive or not, was a mass battle game. Take a look at the forums (of any wargaming site) and see how many AARs are being made by folks playing mass battle fantasy games. Hard to find any really.

Over on Dakka, when AoS was threatened and then dropped on the populace, I saw a mass exodus to KoW. Most old WHFB players who piped up, switched to that despite their love of the FB rules and distrust of element-based gaming. Their reason, beyond GW blowing up the old world, and introducing bald core rules with excruciating joke rules for their old factions, was that they were into WHFB for mass battles.

I'll agree, in a way, on one wee tangent. Despite that boost to Mantic, and the heaps of cheaper, non-GW plastic kits, I think 28mm mass battles in general might be winding down just a tad, what with the fall of WAB and now WHFB, and the rise of prices, new =/<15mm ranges, and some pretty good skirmish games. Especially skirmish games hyped up on Kickstarter, attracting a lot of attention and hobby budgets. Not to mention 28mm taking a bit more painting to look good. So not just less financial investment needed (sometimes) but also less hobby and possibly gaming time and effort. (Though I'll happily admit that's based on not much more than idle glances and speculation, and personal preference)

Price doesn't explain that. It is a shift in playing preference on a wide scale.

Now I know everyone loves to beat up on AOS, but have you ever looked at the investment you need to put in to play Infinity?   The same could be said for Drop Zone Commander or Dystopian Wars (and they aren't even 28mm). Want to do some REAL wargaming (say Napoleonics, for example)... you are going to drop a lot of coin.

It must be something other than price. Um... good rules, maybe?

I'm a businessman

You're not the only one. Not one myself, but I've seen others on Warseer and Dakka who think GW must be taking crazy pills.

As I've said before, it'll be interesting to see the next couple of half-year reports from GW. Will AoS make that downward zigzag on the graph turn up again? Probably. Will it last long? We'll see.

[YPU]

I see what you did there.

Honest to god typo there.

[Ray Rivers]

I'll agree, in a way, on one wee tangent. Despite that boost to Mantic, and the heaps of cheaper, non-GW plastic kits, I think 28mm mass battles in general might be winding down just a tad, what with the fall of WAB and now WHFB, and the rise of prices, new =/<15mm ranges, and some pretty good skirmish games.

A tad? Are you kidding me?

Look, I've been in this hobby for 40 years.

I remember when mass battle historical wargaming in both 15 and 25 mm was the norm. Fantasy was played by D&D dudes smoking dope in the other room... without miniatures.

I've played Napoleonic, ACW and ancients games with thousands of minis on the table... that is how I started. I've probably thrown away more miniatures than a lot of folks on this forum have ever owned. If folks want to play KoW... cool, I truly hope they have fun.

But the one undeniable truth is that those bad old days when wargaming was pretty much nothing but mass battles... they are gone.

Everybody complains that GW doesn't listen to their fans. But their fans, indeed, almost the entire wargaming community have fled mass battle gaming. Seems to me they are screaming "We want to play skirmish games!"

And so GW changed course. And that course is a long term commitment to skirmish gaming, the kind that folks are screaming for.

Now you can bitter about the price, the rules, the OTT mini's, la de da... it's all peanut bull ka ka.  From my perspective, this is a huge change by GW one which requires a long term vision, a large investment and a commitment to give the people what they want... a skirmish game with top notch miniatures. Are there kinks? Sure... but once again, those are short term problems, one's that will get fixed as long as they keep their eye on the long term ball.

Whether it will work out... have no idea. But one thing is for sure, as a businessman, who for a long time hasn't bought crap from GW, I can sum up my view of the company based on what they have done with one word: respect. And because of it, I am supporting them with my wallet.

Now please do continue sniping... you know it makes you feel better.  

[Barbarian]

I'm not really sure about skirmish vs Battles.

I play 10mm battle games and 28 mm skirmish : I like both.

It is the price tag the problem.

[grant]

I gave up all my mass games some years ago as well. More than 30 or 40 minis is a daunting project now.

[Duke Donald]

Given the success of "ultra-skirmish" games (5-20 minis a side) and miniature boardgames, there is definitely a move towards games that can be played with a lower investment in time (and money). Besides, I feel that the trend towards games with fewer individually based miniatures has also been driven by the increase in quality (and cost) of miniatures over the last decades. Mediocre sculpts only look good when massed, whereas beautiful minis shine when individually based.

Thus, I agree that GW was right to develop a fantasy game with better scalability, where essentially any collection of random minis can be used as a viable force. I further agree that bold decisions and sticking to long-term plans can be part of a sound business strategy. However, antagonising the majority of your existing customers doesn't strike me as the pinnacle of business acumen.

[Cubs]

Yeah, I think skirmish was the way to go (or rather go back) but that didn't have to come with all the rest of the nonsense.

[Argonor]

Price doesn't explain that. It is a shift in playing preference on a wide scale.

Yes, it does. Smaller games = less minis = lower cost. The more expensive it gets to play the 'mainstream' mass games, the faster the trickle into the cheaper gaming solutions.

As for Infinity, as I understand it, it is also primarily a skirmish game, so even if the price of individual minis is rather steep, you don't need more than half a dozen to play.

I think the main reason for more skirmish games than mass games being featured on the forums is not that noone plays mass games, but they are played less frequently because a) it takes much more time to set up and play mass games, b) it takes much more time to ready/prepare new units for mass games (skirmish games need maybe 1 or 2 new minis painted, whereas mass games need full units (or even brigades/divisions) to make a change/update, c) many more individuals today play wargames than when I started out (also nearly 40 years ago), and the constant bombardment of new skirmish rulesets, combined with the relatively low entry cost for playing such games, means that there is always something new and shiny to try out, and d) I think making AARs for smaller, more narrative games, where you follow the merits of named individuals, is more fun and compelling than reporting yet another defeat at Waterloo; maybe other gamers see it the same way.

But to say they are all but not existing is a bit of an exaggeration; didn't take me 2 minutes to find one posted here a mere 2 days ago, and I think that anyone regularily browsing this forum will have seen a lot of beautiful arrays of opposing armies. There has been a general shift from 28mm mass gaming towards smaller sized minis (again PRICE, and thus cost, combined with the time/effort needed to put decently sized armies on the table plays a considerable role in decision-making), but I don't see mass battle games being much less popular these days than, say, 20 years ago. As already stated, my impression is that here in Denmark MORE people play mass games than back then, but as miniature wargaming has become more widely accessible, it may still be the smaller part of all gamers who do them, thus the seemingly infrequent posting of battles.

I don't think anyone here denies that GW is thinking long-term, I just doubt they'll succeed, given their price-strategy. I own quite a bunch of GW stuff, loved their style, but at a certain point the cost/benefit just did not add up any more.

Thus, I agree that GW was right to develop a fantasy game with better scalability, where essentially any collection of random minis can be used as a viable force.

This is exactly what they are trying to avoid, turning the aestaethics into something unmistakably GW, so it will be difficult to get lookalikes that cannot be cleansed and burned by legal dept. Which is understandable, but also makes the game subject to taste-decisions. Some like the new aestaethics, and are willing to pay hard cash to play the game, but will they, in the end, prove to be sufficiently numerous (AND loyal), when there is SO many alternative offerings out there?

[grant]

Yeah, I think skirmish was the way to go (or rather go back) but that didn't have to come with all the rest of the nonsense.

Agreed. They killed Warhammer and replaced it with a turd floating in a pool of random gamingness.

Better to have not even done aos at all, just killed the line like it was specialist.