The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[FramFramson]

I think Argonor has it when he pretty much states that mass-battle gaming hasn't left us, it's just been scaled down to the smaller sizes.

[Gibby]

Warhammer only became a really big battle game in 8th edition when huge units were almost required to be useful. Earlier editions saw you able to play battles more akin to large skirmishes. I've seen Lion Rampant games with armies the size of say, 6th edition Warhammer ones.

8th edition jumping to huge core unit sizes while GW simultaneously halved the core troop box contents and raised the prices is definitely a major factor in many people jumping ship on Warhammer fantasy.

Ray, you like AoS and that's great, but those of us who don't aren't necessarily bitter folks or haters who can't see the genius in GW's plan. If I hated GW I would forget about them. Tis my love of the Old World that kept me around "moaning" for so long (which is why we have this thread in a way). No sniping intended.

[Dr. Zombie]

I would love to play some massed fantasy battles, but I have yet to find a set of rules I like. I think Hail Ceasar is what comes closest. But they are hardly fantasy..

[Cubs]

I think Hail Ceasar is what comes closest. But they are hardly fantasy..

The rules are based on Warmaster aren't they? I haven't played either game, so this is very much second hand speculation.

[Mahwell skel]

there is definitely a move towards games that can be played with a lower investment in time (and money).

I think time is the factor. Most people want something they can play start to finish in a couple of hours. Something that will paint in a couple of hours a night, not a massive time investment that eats up free time without the same reward.

[A Lot of Gaul]

I would love to play some massed fantasy battles, but I have yet to find a set of rules I like. I think Hail Ceasar is what comes closest. But they are hardly fantasy..

The rules are based on Warmaster aren't they? I haven't played either game, so this is very much second hand speculation.

The Hail Caesar rules were indeed developed from Warmaster, via Warmaster Ancients > Black Powder > Hail Caesar.

By the way, there is also a free downloadable set of fantasy mods for Hail Caesar, entitled 'Shadow Storm,' which apparently has received the blessing of the HC author: http://adyswargamesden.com/category/shadow-storm/

@Dr. Zombie - I haven't played the HC fantasy mod myself, but you may want to consider giving it a go.

Cheers,
Scott

[Argonor]

Scott beat me to it 

[Vermis]

Look, I've been in this hobby for 40 years.

Now please do continue sniping... you know it makes you feel better.  

  It hasn't mellowed you, then. I've only been in the hobby about 15; but for most of those, almost all I've seen of GW's public face and glimpses of it's private one shows how little they 'respect' their market and how little they have to respect in turn. I could list all the big and little things I can't respect, but I'd be here all day and I've things to do.

I'm hardly blameless when it comes to playing nice here, Ray, but this topic is starting to feel like... certain other forums. It's beginning to feel pointless to explain to you why some of us dislike GW and their games when you're so adamant in your view. (I did play some of them for a few years! As Gibby says, it's our first-hand knowledge and experience of GW that fuels our 'whining'.) And I'm beginning to wonder why you try so hard to convince us that AoS is great, by shooting barbs and insults at us.

So, yeah, I want me LAF feeling back. I'm stepping away from this tangent.

I think Argonor has it when he pretty much states that mass-battle gaming hasn't left us, it's just been scaled down to the smaller sizes.

I think 28mm mass battles in general might be winding down just a tad, what with the fall of WAB and now WHFB, and the rise of prices, new =/<15mm ranges, and some pretty good skirmish games.

I should've bolded to begin with.

Mind you, Argonor's post's a great 'un, put much better! I can't disagree with any of it.

I would love to play some massed fantasy battles, but I have yet to find a set of rules I like. I think Hail Ceasar is what comes closest. But they are hardly fantasy..

Cubs is right, but did you see Ady's Shadow Storm HC-fantasy expansion?

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=80155.0

Edit: ninja'd! Twice!

If it's not going too far off-topic, what rulesets have you looked at?

[Ray Rivers]

Well, if I insulted anyone you can be assured it wasn't intentional.

But when I see folks post crap like this in a normal thread:

the miniatures are so wildly over-the-top though I can't even see what's going on, or who is who.

It just pisses me off... 

We all have a right to an opinion, and let us not forget that THIS thread was originally started to let folks vent against GW, but when that attitude starts seeping into normal threads, then it is darn "un-LAF like" as well.

[Ajsalium]

But it's true.

From a technical point of view, the GW sprues are simply brilliant. For me it's a pleasure in itself just watching them and see how they've managed to "cut" the mini to avoid undercuts.
Aesthetics is a very different matter.
I was a Chaos collector and player for years, massing an army of 10.000+ points. But from seventh or eight edition I feel pretty much all chaos minis are just little else that an amalgamation of skulls and spikes, arranged in a humanoid shape.
For over-the-topness, well, I'd say that the latest rat ogre with a machine gun coming out of his chest rightully fits the bill. Or the latest stormcast mega-lord, which just copies the design of the new Nagash (i.e. big guy floating supported by eldritch spirits or energy).

But that's just my opinion.

[Ray Rivers]

It hasn't mellowed you, then.

Of course not... I'm passionate about miniatures.

And I really like the idea of a Roman-Greco Fantasy world. Nope, it's not your Warhammer of the past it is a totally differently themed fantasy product.

And to be quite honest, I would defend just about ANY miniatures manufacturer (except the folks who sold me that really crappy Sedition Wars thing..  ). Did you see some of the posts on the Prodos thread... horrible really.

Every business has it's own unique problems. Miniatures companies have it pretty difficult being such a niche market. Why do folks get so viral... it's so counterproductive, I just can't understand it.

[Ajsalium]

Thought I should mention that I've bought three of those winged sigmarines to be used as Diablo-inspired archangels.
I don't like most of GW releases, but there are a few true gems here and there (specially those not covered, literally, in WH/AoS iconography).

[3 fingers]

my traction wars stuff is turning into mass battle. The background is so good though its worth the hassle of lots of figs. 

will we see it on here?

[Too Bo Coo]

That is one way to explain it... but it goes against the pronounced trend away from mass battle games towards skirmish games. Warhammer, expensive or not, was a mass battle game. Take a look at the forums (of any wargaming site) and see how many AARs are being made by folks playing mass battle fantasy games. Hard to find any really. Now look at how many skirmish batreps are being made... in pretty much EVERY category of wargaming. TONS!

Price doesn't explain that. It is a shift in playing preference on a wide scale.

Now I know everyone loves to beat up on AOS, but have you ever looked at the investment you need to put in to play Infinity?  The same could be said for Drop Zone Commander or Dystopian Wars (and they aren't even 28mm). Want to do some REAL wargaming (say Napoleonics, for example)... you are going to drop a lot of coin.

Now as a successful business man there isn't a day that does go by when I don't have some guy trying to sell me something that is "the same but cheaper." Do I buy it? Fuck no. The reason is because I manage my businesses based on a long term outlook, not short term "did I make money today." Short term management, on the whole, is a guaranteed loser.

Now GW could have introduced the Stormcast Internals in finecast to test the waters. But they didn't, because that is a short term experiment which is doomed from the start. Instead, they wiped the slate clean and took a long term approach. You can tell it is a long term approach because the minis they are putting out are made in plastic, and that is one hell'va investment.

Now you don't think that GW didn't understand that forums would be filled with hate and trolling for their move? Of course they did. But they did it anyway which shows their vision is long term and any really successful company is run that way.

So ya'll can analysis, spit venom and complain as long as you want. Personally, I think they have made, from a professional viewpoint as a businessman, a pretty awesome move. You might not see the result in the coming weeks or months... but any real businessman knows that when you dramatically change direction, your not looking at weeks or months... you are looking at years.

So... I wouldn't expect GW to walk from AOS any time soon.

I'm sure that's what the Coca Cola execs were telling themselves when they made their switch back in the 80's.....

[grant]

So... Warhammer Classic soonish?