The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Rhoderic]

Criticism of GW - however intense it may be - is not an attack on anyone who's into GW.

The fact that hearing such criticism can be tiring and devitalising to a GW enthusiast is unfortunate and not something I believe anyone in this forum wants. But at the same time, it shouldn't reflect badly back on the people voicing that criticism for valid reasons of their own which have nothing to do with trying to ruin the hobby for anyone else.

Likewise, if an individual is disillusioned with GW, then the fact that he or she is one of a very large number of people with similar opinions should not reflect badly back on him or her. It may however reflect badly on GW.

EDIT: This post is not intended in reply to Captain Blood (as it may appear through my clumsy writing), but rather in reply to the discussion going on before his intervention.

[Major_Gilbear]

It's true. There's a lot of moaning about GW on this thread. But then, honestly - that's what it's here for.
To channel all conversations about GW, with all that attendant and inevitable negativity into one place. And stop it infecting the rest of our generally happy, positive, good-natured forum.

Agreed!

Perhaps we could just try to avoid the name-calling blame game either way? Thanks

I would like that. 

[nic-e]

They apparently do no market research, and listen to no customer feedback. That's why this thread is 291 pages long, and why GW are losing market share steadily every year.

I genuinely do believe that with the new CEO that is going to change. They seem to be doing what the community has been asking for for a long time, and whilst i doubt they'll be having open forums any time soon, i'm sure there are more than a few people whos unofficial job at GW is to skim the forums and see what's in demand and what's flopping like a flip flop with erectile dysfunction.

[Major_Gilbear]

[...] i'm sure there are more than a few people whos unofficial job at GW is to skim the forums and see what's in demand and what's flopping like a flip flop with erectile dysfunction.

"From your lips to God's ears"? 

[FionaWhite]

We even got a little excited when the rumoured "Specialist" games were possibly coming back. 

I was somewhat interested in the Hobbit/LotR part of those news till I realized it probably just means they'll be making things like "Elven Sun-Cannon", "Mordor Magma-Launcher", "Valar Skyship of Judgement" and the like for it, instead of making the current "Fine"cast stuff available in metal or plastic.
I'd really like to meet the bozo who thought that pikemen need to made in resin. 

On the bright side, AoS and the aftermath of it at least made my brother quit both Warhammer Fantasy (though I suppose it can be argued that GW quit it for him?) and 40k so maybe I should send them a "Thank You" card. 

[eilif]

I have not been following GW this year and I haven't read every page of this thread.  I just looked this figure up and I was surprised to find that it's not a space marine.  A couple serious questions then:
What is it?  
Is there a faction of these in AoS?  
Is this a crossover with 40k?

Sorry, just a bit confused.

[nic-e]

"Valar Skyship of Judgement"

I am not ashamed to say i would buy that...

[Major_Gilbear]

What is it?  
Is there a faction of these in AoS?  

Yes, they are an AoS faction: "The Stormcast Eternals". Basically Terminator-sized Fantasy not-Space Marines who are Sigmar's chosen eternal/immortal champions that he sends out on missions to fight the forces of evil and retreive magical macguffins. (Sigmar is the the humans' god BTW).

The Lord Relictor model is akin to a space Marine Chaplain in some ways, and they guard the souls of fallen Stormcast Eternals to ensure that they can be born again and return to the fight. They also act as priests of Sigmar.

Is this a crossover with 40k?
Sorry, just a bit confused.

No crossover into 40k, even though they do look like they belong there better. Their passing similarity to Space Marines is why they earned their nickname "Sigmarines", so you're not alone in making that connection.

[grant]

it is criminal. A heroin habit is cheaper to have than a GW army here.
Most gaming stores here have pretty much phased out GW or reduced it to a corner of the store. Mantic FoW Privateer Press, the new osprey games like IHMN and Frostgrave have all taken up its shelf space.

The amount of badly painted GW in second hand lots have pretty much dried up too. No one is buying in and giving up anymore.

Same here in Canada. GW is fading away. So long? It's the new games that "get it" that are like hot cakes.

[Rhoderic]

I feel that they still dominate in the area of making plastic kits. Love, loathe, or feel indifferent to their model designs; they are the industry leaders in making plastic figures for wargaming with. I feel that -in techincal terms- thier plastics are still generally the benchmark set for others to reach, even though many other companies are hot on their heels and closing the gap ever faster. (Although, arguably, some companies have already surpassed GW in some areas here as well).

Games-wise, I feel GW got left behind long ago. I also suspect they feel that way too, as they seem to have largely given up on making interesting games any more, and even the potential resurrection of Specialist games is more likely about protecting their IP claims and getting attention than making interesting games again.

Yeah, I did mainly mean games-wise. They still have some modicum of a lead in respect to designing plastic kits, I agree. For instance, it's interesting that on that new Dwarf "Fyreslayer" (bleh) sprue, the helmet is a separate piece from the head. It can be assembled as an actual hollow, unworn helmet. That's significant because it should presumably allow modellers to variegate the figures more so that the same beard and face are not always matched with the same helmet and crest. Then again, younger, less experienced modellers may end up with unsightly lines where the two halves of the helmet join, or with helmets that are misaligned with the heads. I still maintain that GW is, to a considerable degree, targeting a young customer base, and that in so doing it is callously and cynically disregarding the fact that young'uns may not be able to assemble and paint the figures well.

But anyway, as you also say, other companies are closing the gap. Which is a very positive thing as it means better wargaming products all round.

I genuinely do believe that with the new CEO that is going to change. They seem to be doing what the community has been asking for for a long time

In regard to this and the Specialist Games, I'm trying to maintain some small germ of hope. I could even imagine myself taking up Necromunda, Mordheim, BFG etc even if they come back as something very different to what they originally were, assuming they'll still have some kind of self-worth as what they are, regardless of what they may have been in the past. But my expectations of GW are justifiably low, so I'm not exactly setting aside money for it.

[nic-e]

Cease and desist order in 5..4..3..2..

[Argonor]

Most gaming stores here have pretty much phased out GW or reduced it to a corner of the store.

Happens around here, too.

Sadly, only the dedicated games-stores (of which there are very few) are taking in stocks of other systems, so I fear that gaming is going to see hard times ahead.

Hobby-stores are simply phasing out their existing GW-stock, as they are not really aware of the other manufacturers. One owner of such a store in which I have been making purchases now and then since the mid-70s, told me a couple of years ago, that already then there was virtually not any money in selling GW-products anymore. Slow turnover, combined with high purchase prices and small profit margin, plus the demand from GW to order fixed numbers of a given product code, meant that shelf space was better used on other products.

Back then he reduced the space taken up by GW-products by about 3/4, and today they only take up a fraction of that.

Without stores to push games (at reasonable prices) to new players (we only have ONE dedicated store on Funen, in Odense) I don't see how new gamers are going to be 'created' for the hobby in general.

[Vermis]

Hadn't even spotted that one yet.   The gravity gun was the latest addition I was aware of. Did a quick search and this was the best info I could find:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Volkite_Weapon

Hmm. Just sounds like a melta weapon, TBH. Ta though.

I also think it's safe to say the vast majority of the people who are not fans of GW have been GW players before... I've said it before, we'd all like to see GW become sane and reasonable again.  We even got a little excited when the rumoured "Specialist" games were possibly coming back.

Agreed that most of us are ex-GW fans waiting for GW to become sane and reasonable again, but sometimes I wonder if it was ever sane and reasonable - regarding it's two core games, anyway. It was a bit cheaper, perhaps, not as insane and unreasonable...
Granted, I wasn't there for most of it, but looking at one example like Oldhammer - and here I take my life in my hands - I get the impression that the main motivation is nostalgia and lost youth, moreso than rules or model quality. Maybe GW always targeted a younger customer base (including excitable teenagers, and especially with it's WFB/40K rules style) but these days it's a bit more apparent, skewed a bit younger. Maybe even part of the reason for gamers ragequitting after GW shakes the snowglobe (i.e. changes editions) is because the rules, viewed in a slightly different form, have been outgrown.

On the topic of Specialist Games: I remember the claim, attributed to Jervis Johnson, that the SGs were intended for more 'mature' gamers. I don't have many issues with that, meself. Pretty much agreed. They were an outlet for older gamers to play more tactical, or deeper games in GW's settings. (Probably the biggest draws GW had for their main games, especially in recent years) Trouble is that they were snatched away, at least in a convenient, supported form. Then the most readily available way of gaming in the Warhammer and 40K settings were... Warhammer and 40K. Who'd be crazy enough to go that route?
Even with alternative rules, the minis were gradually put out of reach by skyrocketing prices. Now, the majority of GW's fantasy range might even be discontinued. What it's apparently being replaced with, well, as Rhoderic says, it doesn't look like it's intended to appeal to older gamers.

For Grant's sake ( ) TL;DR: the Warhammer world was taken away from us, by the mere act of aging (IMO) and by GW's refusal to allow for that, in the interests of money-grubbing. If we had to sum up the reason for all the internet-wide antipathy towards GW, and AoS in particular, in one line, that'd be my take on it. YMMV.

On the topic of Specialist Games' return: I'm sceptical. It's a good thing, on the face of it. SG vets get new models, gamers new to SGs get a convenient, official taste of what all the fuss is about. But when they're planning to sell these games that were originally discontinued because they 'didn't sell', I can't help but think it's less about "Say, we've neglected our old customers. Let's show them how much we appreciate them!" and more about "Oh crap oh crap oh crap! We need something to sell! What have we got to sell? Quick, search the dumpsters!"
As for what form they might take, I dunno. I don't know if GW can put out a mature wargame ruleset these days, let alone remember that SGs were intended for older gamers. (I hear an external board game writer was hired for Battle of Calth) The rules as they were, with minimal tinkering, might be the best bet. But then the rumoured one-off box sets, even a string of box sets for each game, might be another hurdle. It doesn't sound like it'll add up to a cohesive, constantly-available range of minis.

But we'll see. They don't even have the Specialist Studio set up yet, AFAIK. Early doors.

[Elbows]

I wholeheartedly agree that the Oldhammer attraction is nostalgia (and not a little charm).  I've always said that I liked GW back when it was broke and run by nerds...before they hired proper business folk to attend to the business.  Remember when White Dwarf showed you how to make a Land Raider from WW1 tank kits, because it wasn't available from GW?  There was a time when the guys running GW were just gamers - now that probably made for a terrible business, but the atmosphere was much less "feed the machine!".

Now, the info I'm about to drop is no less than 10 years old, but when my buddy was managing a GW retail store in the very early 2000's the sales policies were aimed at first-time buyers.  The managers were told that the whole goal was to get mom/dad to buy their child $200+/- of stuff in the first big purchase.  Subsequent purchases were not as important in the business strategy at that time.  They didn't care too much about the occasional gamer picking up a single box or a paint brush or paint now and then.  Of course this strategy was laid out to the managers in their yearly conferences.

Now, since then...GW shut down the majority of its retail locations and is only now opening up new ones.  I'm sure business practices have changed in 10+ years time.

Regarding the specialist stuff, I always thought these were far superior to the build-armies games.  They were about $60 at the time, offered a complete game in a box, and in general were definitely more deep.  I thought they were easily GW's best products.  I have no idea what sales were like - but all of my gaming group had warbands and copies of Necromunda, Mordheim, etc.  They were definitely plenty popular.  I know Epic never sold too well, and the old Man o' War wasn't too successful.  I think for a retail store though it was a good idea to have these "one stop boxes" for the purchasers looking to get their kid into something but unable/unwilling to buy $200+ worth of stuff to get started.

I think they had some seriously quality titles available via their Historicals side...but that's another subject entirely.

[grant]

Appreciated then tldr summary