The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Dim_Reaper]

GW haters may wish GW will go bust overnight, but wishfull thinking doesn't make it so.

Although to be fair, GW Upper Management and the "Design Team's" writers have been working on that for a number of years now, and may actually succeed. I mean, the writing has got so bad even Space Marine players have noticed.

I'm not a fan of the term "haters" in the same way as dismissing criticism as "negative", suggesting it's somehow automatically wrong by tone. If the so called "White Knights" (another pretty pointless extreme, although at least one with more people who fit into it) had any arguments that actually convincingly suggested the naysayers are wrong above "Well, at least the models are pretty", I'd be inclined to accept the negative connotations of such a name. But as AoS convincingly and undoubtedly showed that yes, the writing team are as fucking useless as we always said they were, I think the debate is done, and the remaining fans are just being stubborn. That's their perogative, but why they still act superior is beyond me. GW are a spent entity as far as a wargaming company. If you like ludicrously expensive CAD crack, then sure.

Age of Sigmar is not a good game. It's certainly fun. I do have a soft spot for it, but it is flawed in every respect as a rules system. And ultimately, as the Ante Upping bullshit has already started (Everchosen!) my predictions about the game being designed to give the Sales Team a stiffy, and shortly afterwards, power gamers, I can't see AoS turning out to be more successful than Warhammer. I think it has had limited appeal because of the initially free rules. Once we go back to paying £30 too much in order to use 1+ model/s from every fucking faction, AoS will deteriorate much quicker than WHFB did. At least that had a long established fanbase that stretched numerous generations.


As to the predictions of GW going bust? Well anyone who thinks it will be quick probably haven't taken enough things into account (primarily that Corporate Minions do at least know how to make a shit year look like an okay one), but GW are certainly failing. At this point, they've cut virtually everything that isn't instantly profitable, they're removing anything that is an IP hazard, they've increased sculpt quality, and they've addressed everything aside of anything they're being criticised for, and who'd have thunk it, sales are still dropping.

I don't expect GW to go out of business any time soon, but they'd better up their game if they plan to be here in a decade, because at this rate they have no chance. After 8th Edition Fantasy happened, I always thought WHFB players would never notice writing bad enough to make them quit arrogantly going on about how awesome their game was. Then AoS happened...

[Major_Gilbear]

Major Gilbear: heh! I even found the metal models difficult to assemble. Some of those Guild constructs had very fiddly connection points.

True, plenty of the metal models were bastards to build; however I have found the incidence of this to have increased very sharply with the new plastics. I have the new Guild Guard - not only are they built from a shower of inhaleably-small pieces, it took me thirty minutes to work out how to assemble two models!  

I haven't assembled any plastic Malifaux models yet, but I was given a few spare rail crew bits on the sprue. The thought of trying to keep some of those bits on the model, even with poly cement, fills me with dread. Heck, even the thought of trying not to lose them in the carpet.

I've had a few bits arrive pre-broken on the sprue. Same with a fair few recent GW models too.  

And then another beef is that, apparently beginning with their plastics, their humans got a big dose of uncanny valley. The look well sculpted, realistic, truescale, but when you get down to the knees, the shins go shooting out about 1.5 to 2 times longer than they need to. (I mentioned that to the guy who gave me the rail crew bits - now he bkames me fir not being able to unsee it. )

I find the faces too small to hold enough detail for them to have any character. Loooong limbs is a feature of their new art style though.

That bit is not really anything to do with the medium; but overall, Wyrd seem to have taken the opportunity of remaking the range, to introduce some weird style changes and collector friendly/gamer unfriendly design elements. Much the same as GW. Though the thing may be, Wyrd didn't completely dump their popular game and setting, and introduce new, unstructured examples in the same process.

Wyrd still lost plenty of people from the revamp of the artistic styling, as well as from the rules changes. However, the game was a good game with an interesting setting, plenty of narrative scenarios, and lots of fun characters - all of which still remain in the new edition.

So, maybe, it was making a good game that resulted in Wyrd's second edition of Malifaux becoming wildly more popular. Also, my £50 buys me a decent crew that's got lots to keep me busy - when I get bored I can get a different crew, and it's not a big deal. GW expects you to spend that on one model/unit, and you still need to spend a fair bit more to actually play a real game with them. That's a big difference, especially when you compare the games as well.

Hmmm...

I mean, the writing has got so bad even Space Marine players have noticed.

[Elbows]

I think we're mostly in agreement...we'd like to see GW become an option again.  As a gamer, when I see a new company/line of products/terrain etc. it falls into one of several categories:

-Something you must have solely based on cool factor, uses be damned.
-Something you want and can use in your current games.
-Something that doesn't interest you.

A lot of stuff falls into the first two categories but then is limited by any number of factors: wrong scale, obscene price, wrong material, untrustworthy company, etc.

As gamers, we all love choices.  When I need figures I know I tend to go to a handful of preferred companies.  We'd all love for GW to be sane and competitive again, provide an actual interesting, obtainable product which we could enjoy.  There are loads of cool 40K and Fantasy figures I could find uses for outside of the GW gaming web...but their prices absolutely prohibit that (and the way they do business, unable to buy simply at online retailers, etc.).  Now, as a gamer who doesn't benefit from almost any GW product, would I be upset if they did tank?  No.  I'd be rather indifferent, beyond a small concern for a gaming company going under.

If GW fails it will have nothing to do with tragic events...but will be solely a result of their own decisions.  We'd prefer them to stop making those decisions and gain more business, but we don't make those decisions. 

[McMordain]

Malifaux... There should be a special kind of hell for the designers of the malifaux plastics. A place where they have to put together those damned kits all day long... And trying to fit them on the bases.

Back on topic. My understandig is that the tools for plastic stuff is expensive. Could this be a reason (or on of the reasons) for the high prices of the new kits? That they don't expect to sell that much of them?

[Modhail]

When comparing to other plastic model kit/miniature manufacturers? No, not by a looong stretch.
Although GW is known for ofsetting loss of sales with price hikes (leading to further loss of sales, leading to further price hikes, etc...) So in a way you're not just paying for your own kit, but also for the kit(s) someone else didn't buy...

[richstrach]

BoLS has got some interesting if unsubstantiated rumours about the Specialist Games dept up:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/12/gw-rumors-specialist-games-begins.html:

[Tactalvanic]

So. basically. probably.maybe

they will indeed expand the list of limited edition sets they can re-release from just Space Hulk to enclude other specialist games to increase the number of intervening years between each limited edition re-release. um.

Maybe they will eventually re-incarnate the WFB boxed starter sets as a specialist games - with specialist period correct "not destroyed yet by the end times" terrain pieces with specific gaming rules attached accordingly?

Makes me wonder how many years from now will AOS or 40K be added to the specialist games lists?

As the main core business is seemingly  moved completely towards being a producer of high quality collectibles, rather than the production of any games to play with them?

I can hear the little boys of the future GW hobby direction already

 "what play games with my GW collectibles? Are you mad! they are special and cost to much money to bash against each other like the latest rules edition says!"

and the classic

"no, no, my GW hobby collectibles are to expensive/valuable to actually paint, that might devalue them to much, and anyway they are supposed to be kept and displayed still on sprue sealed in the original packaging..."

[Vermis]

I like the title of the article. No trace of irony.

Still sceptical about how Mordheim's background will fit into GW's grand plan.

Pfft. What am I saying? GW's grand plan is "mo' minis, mo' minis, mo' monies".

[Rhoderic]

If that anonymous source is credible, then I think it's a step in the right direction. Staggered releases for at least four games in rotation (however slow-paced) would suggest something other than "one-off" minigames a la Dreadfleet, even if said releases will apparently come in "faction kit" format. Necromunda, Mordheim and Battlefleet Gothic are all games I'm interested in. BloodBowl not so much (and I've got a few BB teams already, which I never use), but three out of four is good.

That's not to say the products are guaranteed to be satisfactory to me. The figures may turn out to be uninspired, over-designed hulks of skulls and spikes. The kits may just be too damn expensive, especially if they also come with rulebooks or 2D printed card terrain/gameboards. I don't need newly designed GW rules (I won't outright dismiss the thought of playing new official editions of Necromunda, Mordheim or Battlefleet Gothic, but at the very least I'd be extremely apprehensive) and 2D terrain is worthless to me. But for now, if the source is credible, the first step isn't nearly as bad as it could have been.

I only wonder how to interpret the following:

This initial set will be released in sequence and each will get a regular seasonal release slot in future years.

Does that mean one release slot per year per game, or one release slot per season per game? Is a season a quarter of a year or half of a year?

[Ray Rivers]

I think we're mostly in agreement...

Kinda common in echo chambers.  

When comparing to other plastic model kit/miniature manufacturers? No, not by a looong stretch.
Although GW is known for ofsetting loss of sales with price hikes (leading to further loss of sales, leading to further price hikes, etc...) So in a way you're not just paying for your own kit, but also for the kit(s) someone else didn't buy...

   Which is why GW stock is up on the year 25% I gather.

Anyway, so everyone was screaming how shit GW resin was and they didn't listen to their detractors and changed to hard plastic,  which does indeed require a major investment.

The change to hard plastic was also another reason why I took another look at GW and decided to jump into AoS. I've tried a number of resin products from other companies and yes they definitely have lots of details, but in general, I didn't like working with the stuff, not near as flexible as metal or plastic. You got all these warnings about breathing in the crap to boot. As more things that use resin hit the overall market, such as a building material, resin is going to gain ever increasing attention as a respiratory health hazard. An obvious winner was the hard plastic 30K box.

When you are talking economies of scale, metal and resin just don't stand up to hard plastic. If you look at probably one of my favorite manufacturers, Perry, even they are getting pretty relentless at releasing plastic miniatures. Go to their home page and what do you see? An ACW plastic starter box for 95 GBP... great value as are most plastic starter boxes including GW.

So basically you are starting to see a clear division in manufacturers. On the one hand you have those folks who have the financial clout to sell hard plastics and on the other you have, well... everybody else. If you look at Hasselfree miniatures, who sell great minis, they are and have been for quite some time moving to resin... yuck.

As for GW, I think we are going to know a lot more about what is coming fantasy wise when they release the Dwarves. If the new Dwarves out dwarf the old dwarfs, then I think you can pretty much expect that the entire fantasy line is going to be reworked. At this point they can't really dump them from the catalog because if they did, they just wouldn't have enough stuff to sell. But given the pace of the last 6 months I think you are going to see a relentless release schedule as the company eventually replaces everything with hard plastic.

For me... exciting days ahead.  

[Mason]

Anyway, so everyone was screaming how shit GW resin was and they didn't listen to their detractors and changed to hard plastic,  which does indeed require a major investment.

To be fair, they were using hard plastic in the first place and decided to switch to Failcast, which I imagine was for cost reasons.
It turned out to be a disaster and they switched back.

Hardly a major investment, just a failed attempt at cutting costs.

[Major_Gilbear]

Maybe they will eventually re-incarnate the WFB boxed starter sets as a specialist games - with specialist period correct "not destroyed yet by the end times" terrain pieces with specific gaming rules attached accordingly?

Makes me wonder how many years from now will AOS or 40K be added to the specialist games lists?

I don't think WHFB or 40K will ever be added to the SG list, at least not in any recognisable sense.

If they were ever to go OOP and be released as a game-in-a-box with maybe a supplement or two, I would expect them to be in the style of FFG's "Chaos in the Old World" or their own defunct "Battle of Five Armies". I say this because I cannot see how you'd play mass battles games without masses of miniatures that will all fit into one box otherwise!

and the classic

"no, no, my GW hobby collectibles are to expensive/valuable to actually paint, that might devalue them to much, and anyway they are supposed to be kept and displayed still on sprue sealed in the original packaging..."

Probably closer to the truth that you might imagine...

I know of people who buy a regular codex as well as the limited edition version just to avoid spoiling or over-handling the limited version. Likewise those that buy two or more of the LE models so that can paint one and keep the other Mint In Box.

This initial set will be released in sequence and each will get a regular seasonal release slot in future years.

Does that mean one release slot per year per game, or one release slot per season per game? Is a season a quarter of a year or half of a year?

I read that mean one game release every four years in the run-up to Christmas. So expect one Necromunda release (as a one-off) every four years basically.

Normally though, "Seasonal" means four per year. In TV-show land however, the term means one "Season" per year.  

Anyway, so everyone was screaming how shit GW resin was and they didn't listen to their detractors and changed to hard plastic,   which does indeed require a major investment.

Failcast was indeed shit. And I don't think GW ever intended it to be a material they'd use long-term. Rather, it was a short-term solution to cease metal model production until they could transition everything into plastic.

Thing is, they could hardly announce that they were releasing models in a substandard material at en enhanced price, and expect it to sell if they also announce in the same breath that everything will be in plastic eventually anyway. All that would happen otherwise is no/low sales and lots of people pestering about plastic release dates.

The other issue is that customers would suffer major sticker-shock if they just went from metal to plastic directly.

To "warm up" their customers to the plastic individual character price (customers who generally seemed desperate to avoid Failcast at all costs), they released popular models they knew would sell regardless (like SM characters) at the top price they could (£18 for a power-armoured librarian?), and in different formats (like the Reclusiam Command Squad) to test the market. After this, other releases followed as the original eye-watering price seemed to have been accepted by their customers, and thus paved their way.

The change to hard plastic was also another reason why I took another look at GW and decided to jump into AoS. I've tried a number of resin products from other companies and yes they definitely have lots of details, but in general, I didn't like working with the stuff, not near as flexible as metal or plastic. You got all these warnings about breathing in the crap to boot. As more things that use resin hit the overall market, such as a building material, resin is going to gain ever increasing attention as a respiratory health hazard. An obvious winner was the hard plastic 30K box.

Metal and plastic are also harmful if you breathe in the dust. It's just easier not to produce much/any fine enough with plastic models, although they probably will carry a similar warning in time.

When you are talking economies of scale, metal and resin just don't stand up to hard plastic. If you look at probably one of my favorite manufacturers, Perry, even they are getting pretty relentless at releasing plastic miniatures. Go to their home page and what do you see? An ACW plastic starter box for 95 GBP... great value as are most plastic starter boxes including GW.

Economies of scale require high-volume sales though.

Normally, high-volume sales are achieved through low/aggressively competitive pricing, and the manufacturers providing you with reasons to buy lots of said product.

This is the opposite of GW are seemingly working towards, which is why many of us are confused.

So basically you are starting to see a clear division in manufacturers. On the one hand you have those folks who have the financial clout to sell hard plastics and on the other you have, well... everybody else.

Somebody needs to tell Mantic!  

If you look at Hasselfree miniatures, who sell great minis, they are and have been for quite some time moving to resin... yuck.

Uh, is this true?

I know they often release resin versions for a short/limited time for those collectors and painters who prefer the stuff, but all their releases are still in metal. Not aware this has changed, but I'm prepared to be educated to the contrary!

As for GW, I think we are going to know a lot more about what is coming fantasy wise when they release the Dwarves. If the new Dwarves out dwarf the old dwarfs, then I think you can pretty much expect that the entire fantasy line is going to be reworked. At this point they can't really dump them from the catalog because if they did, they just wouldn't have enough stuff to sell. But given the pace of the last 6 months I think you are going to see a relentless release schedule as the company eventually replaces everything with hard plastic.

It's obvious that anything not already plastic will be dropped and re-done if they can. The only plastics I expect them to keep are those that are recent or that they are happy enough with (see: Skaven Plague Monks).

So I expect them to keep the last lot of plastic Dwarf releases (re-branding them as Duerdin or whatever they are now), whilst adding in the new Fire-Dwarfs as well. Old stuff not in plastic will probably be quietly dropped unless they have a backlog of Failcast lovely resin to shift.

[Modhail]

  Which is why GW stock is up on the year 25% I gather.

That surprises me, seeing the previous years share plummit and profit warning. Where does the figure come from? (Not disbelieving you, just surprised.)

True, there is a divide between those companies that have the economy of scale to afford plastics and those who don't (And those who are half-assing it with the various flavours of "restic". Which in my eyes hase all the drawbacks of both resin and plastic but the advantages of neither...).
It doesn't mean plastic is inherently superior somehow. It's also about target market and the purpose of the model. A collecter will care less about fragility if the finished item is only stood in a display to look at and so would prefer resin for it's detail, whereas certain gamers don't care about detail/modelling and want their models as sturdy as possible and want plastic as it takes more abuse and paint doesn't chip as easily. (Really, I've once seen a Warhammer gamer just sweep his entire army into a plastic grocery bag!  )
And not all resin is the same, some are quite good (good detail and resilience at the same time) and fairly harmless, while others are nasty, useless crap that doesn't hold detail, are a bear to work with and shatter if you sneeze too close. The problem is that nobody specifically mentions the type/quality of resin they use, and a few bad experiences with the poor quality junk can make one wary of all resins.
Personally I generally prefer plastic and metal over resin, though for some models/quality of resin, I'll make an exception.

I feel the need to correct you on Hasslefree though, they aren't moving over to resin as you seem to imply, but taking two roads, both metal (for it's sturdiness and lower price) and resin (for it's excellent detail reproduction, but at higher fragility and price). Their gaol is to have (almost) every one of their minis available in both metal and resin, letting the customer choose. It's just that the last months/year or so, due to various reasons, their resin production has been vastly outpacing their metal production.

I'd like to see where GW are going with AoS beyond the "Sigmarines" and Khornies as well. I'm not anti-AoS per se (just anti-Nuked Old World, but these two separate things have somehow become the same in many folks eyes), but the factions and setting so far doesn't catch my interest. So, yeah, I'm curious how the other races will be updated and if one of those catches my fancy. Still won't use GW rules though, not my cuppa anymore.

I'm still most excited/apprehensive about the Specialist Games reboot though. I could be a hot mess, or a new golden age for GW, depending mostly on how they handle it.


Here's to bright futures and GW becoming a viable option for many gamers again. Let's hope GW co-operates.  

[Rhoderic]

I read that mean one game release every four years in the run-up to Christmas. So expect one Necromunda release (as a one-off) every four years basically.

Personally I doubt the source meant "seasonal" in the sense of "the holiday season".

I'm wondering what a "release season" is to GW, as I've never (to my recollection) heard of GW speak of "seasons" in regard to release schedules before. I do suspect it's a quarter, though. Which still leaves me with the question of whether there will be one SG release per season (rotating between four games so as to make it one release for each of the games per year) or one release for each of the games per season.

The way I interpret the source's words, there will be "faction kits" as opposed to "full game in a box kits". At least, Necromunda will have "gang kits", which sounds to me like one gang per kit. One such kit per game per year does not sound right. Goliaths in 2016, Eschers in 2017, Delaques in 2018, Cawdors in 2019 and so on? Would people even buy into a game with a release schedule that slow? Does GW even plan that far ahead? On the other hand, one kit per game per quarter may be wishful thinking, as that would make 16 SG kits overall per year which is fairly intense. A Necromunda gang, a Mordheim warband, a Battlefleet Gothic fleet and a BloodBowl team all in the course of three months, then the same again in the next three months, and so on? That would assume GW means to put a lot of resources into the SGs which doesn't sound right either.

So, I'm confused.

[Ray Rivers]

That surprises me, seeing the previous years share plummit and profit warning. Where does the figure come from?

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/GAW:LN

Select 1Y to see the trend line. Current one year return 26.67%. P/E 15.5 (20 to 25 is market average)

Oh, and thanks concerning the explanation on Hasselfree Minis. Great minis but I haven't gotten any of their resin stuff.