The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[nullBolt]

I think that if you want to see the worst of the GW community you just need to go to a certain Subreddit which uses the name of the principal IP and /r/Warhammer40k bans all discussion of. The list of rules is so long and convoluted that they can ban anything and everything (and frequently do) if they don't like it being discussed.

[Vermis]

Their fanbase goes along with it, because the alternative is either developing taste and quitting, or trying to change their local gaming group (and having known a few gaming groups I'd probably rather stand in front of a firing squad than try that one). Ultimately, the only people in this whole situation with the power to change and influence enough people are GW, and their corporate interests are better served in having twitchy, insecure and over-competitive power gaming douche bags than genuine human beings.

It is possible that letting go of so much of their control over how gamers play will end up costing them (making gamers competent enough to realise that they actually deserve better) or whether they'll get away with it, who knows. Certainly, the fostering insecurities has been costing them for years...

We can move this beyond implications if you like. I'm still relatively active on a few GW forums. Any criticism I've had for the company has usually resulted in this assertion being levelled at me. It is one of the multitudes of rather tiresome "White Knight Stock Arguments", as I've come to call them. Defenders of GW insist they are a point of strength. I'd say as it shows White Knights invariably make things personal, I'd say it's not only a point of weakness but incredibly telling. The White Knights don't have anything else. Because the "trolls" tend to be the ones using logic.

Man, I've been seeing and getting some of that myself - what you say about fostering insecurities resonates with me at the moment. People have to stick with 40K because others nearby already play it, because they've spent too much money to stop spending money, because they can't use the minis with  other games, because they like the fluff, because people who try to promote other games are sad, because they live too far from a city... Sometimes it feels like people'll pull anything out of their hat to justify sticking with a game that they might not actually like all that much.

[grant]

Kind of sad, isn't it?

[Mason]

actually GW is pretty savvy in one sense which is they accept the reality of gamers more than the gamers do themselves.

This is most gamers don't actually game but instead talk about gaming. In fact actual gaming is in reality a tiny fraction of the hobby.

For some, it seems that actual gaming is not even a part at all.
But they still talk about it as if it is......

[Elbows]

I remember distinctly my "eureka!" moment.  I'd been across the country for several years, sans any gaming (at all) for around four years.  Had still purchased a bunch of stuff, stocked up as it were, thinking ahead.  Moved back to the East coast and unboxed a bunch of Eldar stuff I'd stockpiled.  Started assembling it, painting some...and then it just hit me.  "I don't like this game...this is an awful lot of work for something I don't enjoy playing.". 

I quit that evening.  Ebay'ed everything and that was it.  I liked the fluff etc., but without my old college buddies and an older gen. of the game to play, I wasn't ever going to really use all the Exodite dragon knights I was converting.  I'm in a bit of the same place now with the BoC stuff...though I'll end up painting it and probably play with another system , or, worst case, sell it off on ebay.

Oddly when I quit 40K I moved into Warhammer Historicals (LOTOW etc.) and then from there started making my own stuff and buying up lots of rulebooks for various genres.

[Vermis]

Can't argue too much with that, Scurv.

I had something similar, Elbows. I didn't ebay everything (so I still have a bunch of stuff for DR, KoW, Mayhem etc. Obsessive hoarding justified! ) but for me it was "does it really matter if ogre bulls take ironfists instead of extra hand weapons?" (Mind you, being cleared out of the local GW helped too) And then, yup, trying other games and genres.

Been through a bit of an 'actually gaming, actually' drought meself, though. I'll have to fix that in '16.

[Tactalvanic]

The one thing I do consistently believe, and see is that GW are great:

at making a lot of intelligent people who like playing miniature games play other companies games.

Which is a great and magnanimous gesture for a collectibles manufacturer - as they are clearly a success in their field, and are helping non - GW  collectible hobby enthusiasts go elsewhere to give their money to real miniatures producers/games companies instead, which helps that industry no end.

As I am not in the field as such for collectible highly detailed mulitpart kits as such I much appreciate their assistance and eye watering pricing encouragement in not giving them my money, consistently, apart from some occasional starter box purchases...  

Yay for GW, thanks for all the help finding other things to do  

[Rhoderic]

Oddly when I quit 40K I moved into Warhammer Historicals (LOTOW etc.) and then from there started making my own stuff and buying up lots of rulebooks for various genres.

Warhammer Historical is how I transitioned away from GW as well. It was WAB Andalusians in my case. Not a fan of WAB as a set of rules anymore, but I do owe it a debt. I'm starting to reach the point where I feel nostalgic thumbing through the WAB supplements. It's not often acknowledged, but Warhammer Historical did a lot for the "indie" miniature wargaming industry in terms of setting new standards for rulebook production values and stuff like that. It was something of a lodestar that way - no wonder GW had to kill it with fire. Now I can't even get hold of Legends of the High Seas for a reasonable price.

[Elbows]

Oh yeah...their Historicals books were simply brilliant by the end.  They had just released a few huge massive tomes when they quite production.  The Gladiator rulebook and their WW1 book were beautiful products (rules were okay). 

[Dim_Reaper]

actually GW is pretty savvy in one sense which is they accept the reality of gamers more than the gamers do themselves.

This is most gamers don't actually game but instead talk about gaming. In fact actual gaming is in reality a tiny fraction of the hobby.

They're really not that savvy. Because the talk bit is where they lose most of their customers. I mean, for a company to not realise that communication between Customers, often discussing shoddy rules writing and blatant overpowered bullshit just makes people like the gaming side even less, doesn't actually suggest that these people know what they're doing.

So really, GW are saying the game is marginal because they're not prepared to improve it.

[nullBolt]

They're really not that savvy. Because the talk bit is where they lose most of their customers. I mean, for a company to not realise that communication between Customers, often discussing shoddy rules writing and blatant overpowered bullshit just makes people like the gaming side even less, doesn't actually suggest that these people know what they're doing.

So really, GW are saying the game is marginal because they're not prepared to improve it.

Their refusal to learn how computers and technology works really highlights this. Even the oldest and stodgiest of corporations have found themselves having to develop an online presence to compete economically and GW's refusal to engage with their community in any way is starting to show the strain.

Places that could be considered "unfriendly" are the first port of call for interaction with the community and it drives away new blood.

GW probably thinks it'd cost too much to hire an English or Marketing graduate on minimum wage to manage forums, Twitter and Facebook etc, though. Once again saving a penny to lose a pound.

[Rhoderic]

Oh yeah...their Historicals books were simply brilliant by the end.  They had just released a few huge massive tomes when they quite production.  The Gladiator rulebook and their WW1 book were beautiful products (rules were okay).  

Oh, wow. I had totally forgotten about Gladiator.

I really do think that we all (at least all of us who appreciate high production values in rulebooks from minor companies) owe a debt to Warhammer Historical for leading the way. The WAB books were not quite on par with the books from "GW proper" at the time (artwork tended to be somewhat amateurish, not counting the covers which were always beautiful) but that just helped prove that a good balance could be struck between budget constraints and production values - a balance that could be striven for by small companies that didn't have GW-level resources but nevertheless wanted to up the game from the old, dingy DBx standard. It's been an upward spiral from there, more and more parties entering the scene with increasingly well-produced rulebooks.

Of course, Warhammer Historical upped its own game as well. The later books (Legends of the Old West, Legends of the High Seas (I think), Gladiator, etc) were a step up from the WAB supplements.

[Dolmot]

Their refusal to learn how computers and technology works really highlights this. Even the oldest and stodgiest of corporations have found themselves having to develop an online presence to compete economically and GW's refusal to engage with their community in any way is starting to show the strain.

Well, they did have their own forum in the early 00s. In fact, they were even quite early adopters compared to many other companies and the countless phpBB/vBulletin/whatever fan forums that started popping up later. The forum had some good bits. For example, I ended up discussing with the designers right there a couple of times. But of course, the bad and the ugly were also there. Just take a look at any current GW forum, add the option to rant directly to the staff, and you should get an idea of how it went.

Long story short, eventually the forums were closed. Apparently the conclusion was "never again" and that policy has been in effect for more than a decade now.

GW probably thinks it'd cost too much to hire an English or Marketing graduate on minimum wage to manage forums, Twitter and Facebook etc, though.

I think they already found out that one, ten or even a hundred graduates cannot really manage forums. However, they could post a bit more than just an occasional tacky YouTube video - with the comments switched off, obviously.

[Rhoderic]

Their refusal to learn how computers and technology works really highlights this. Even the oldest and stodgiest of corporations have found themselves having to develop an online presence to compete economically and GW's refusal to engage with their community in any way is starting to show the strain.

Places that could be considered "unfriendly" are the first port of call for interaction with the community and it drives away new blood.

GW probably thinks it'd cost too much to hire an English or Marketing graduate on minimum wage to manage forums, Twitter and Facebook etc, though. Once again saving a penny to lose a pound.

(I was writing this while Dolmot posted.)

I remember GW briefly having an official forum after one of the website overhauls, 10+ years ago. IIRC they got Paul Sawyer to be the moderator/admin - or at least, he had some sort of official role on the forum engaging with the fanbase. It did not go well at all. People seemed to assume that because Sawyer jocularly titled himself "Fat Bloke" in White Dwarf, they were allowed to call him a fat idiot, which (unsurprisingly) he did not take well. I may be misremembering but I think it wasn't long afterwards that Sawyer left the company for greener... erm, pastures.

Also, more generally, the discussion didn't really take the forms that GW had been wanting. They wanted sycophancy and brainwashed enthusiasm, which would help the "GW hobby" look good to curious newcomers. What they got was sass and discord. They quickly scrapped the forum.

I would argue, though, that it is precisely because GW is so keen on sycophancy and brainwashed enthusiasm, that it keeps getting sass and discord instead. People look at the GW hype machine, and they see purple kool-aid.

It's an evil circle, but GW deserves the caustic fanbase it has, and the GW fanbase deserves the cynical, dishonest Moloch of a company it has.

[grant]

That was the 2nd forum I ever joined, and remember the daily carnage and chaos. Talk about hard moderation. It was like North Korea wanting to talk about Glorious Leader, and finishing with everyone ranting about how awful things were. It was a sea of locked topics.

I was there the day it died. Well deserved, honestly.