The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[beefcake]

If only that were the case.  The Chaos warriors (even the newer incarnations) are an order of magnitude less ridiculous than Sigmarines.  If they were based on Chaos Warriors they might be tolerable.

Unfortunately it's pretty clear that Sigmarines are based on Space Marines and all the ridiculousness that smashing them (and their bulky powered armor) into a fantasy setting entails.

Argonor's quote saying Sigmarines, based on Space marines based upon Chaos warriors. I just left out the middle bit.
I actually prefer the sigmarines to chaos warriors myself. Less spikez and skullz.

[nic-e]

Latest rumor is that lost patrol is being re released with scouts and geanstealers , and that for the 30th space marine anniversary we may be getting an updated copy of the original RT marine box.

I almost feel like age of sigmar, although i don't hate it, was kirby's attempt to spoil the work of the incoming CEO who he knew would be more popular than him.


Also, GW are officially back on facebook with the warhammer age of sigmar facebook page, answering fan questions and giving out info on the upcoming organised play events.

[Elbows]

Regardless of peoples' opinions of AoS, I think the one thing that remains a fact is that Warhammer Fantasy was a failing non-profitable product line.

With a couple thousand SKUs and poor sales, they were always going to do something.  While I personally don't find AoS intriguing and I do find the models hideous and gut-wrenchingly expensive, the reality is that Warhammer Fantasy was going to be turned off or wildly re-envisioned somehow.

It does beg the question - what other options did they consider?  For the people decrying the disappearance of Warhammer Fantasy, we have to ask the question - what solutions did the fanzone have?

I'm not asking this in a mean spirited way, but what routes could GW have gone to save the Warhammer Fantasy line?  The only thing I could imagine would be a heavy reduction in figures, and the dissolving of a couple of races - minimize the SKU and release an equally radical 9th edition fantasy which changed the way the game was played.  Even then, a bunch of players would still have been out of luck.

[Cubs]

It does beg the question - what other options did they consider?  For the people decrying the disappearance of Warhammer Fantasy, we have to ask the question - what solutions did the fanzone have?

Leave it alone. Don't blow it up. Have all rulesets available to purchase at a nominal price in PDF version. Keep only minimal stocks in store and have the rest as only available in the webstore. They don't have to keep updating rules and miniatures because there will always be a trickle of sales going through. It may not be massively profitable, but neither will it be loss-making because the investment into it will be negligible.

It didn't need poking at, everyone had their own favourite version of the rules and their favourite age of miniatures and GW could have tapped into that. They didn't even need to keep a load of stock in storage, they could just cast to order (when orders reach a viable number that is, not individually) as some companies do.

Alternatively, they could have flogged the licence for the mins to another company to take care of for them. I'm sure plenty of people would have lined up to bite their hand off. Foundry already do a load of their OOP models.

The fact that so many sites and FB pages have appeared, dealing in OOP GW models, games and rulesets, highlights the sort of market that could have been tapped.

[Modhail]

It does beg the question - what other options did they consider?  For the people decrying the disappearance of Warhammer Fantasy, we have to ask the question - what solutions did the fanzone have?

Leave the Old World intact, but refocus on it's gritty darkness, the threats in the cracks between civilized society, get it edgy and threatening again. Actually use the decades of background and depth the setting has accumulated. Downscale the rules from pushing blocks of infantry and monsters around to a (middling to large) skirmish level. Tap in to the popularity and market of fantasy skirmish games like Frostgrave, Lion/Dragon Rampant, et al. In other words, do those things that made Mordheim a hit, but expand across the entire setting.
Make standalone boardgames like Betrayal at Calth and Deathwatch Killteam for Fantasy (Re-use the Warhammer Quest brand, perhaps?). Use existing sprues, so it doesn't add too much to expenses.  Back up your claim of being a company that makes collector's figures and re-release some of the classic sculpts in small sets to leech off the Oldhammer market. And/or maybe accept that most of the Warhammer Fantasy cash will come from licencing (Mainly FFG and digital), but keep the range around as direct only for tie-in sales.

[Gibby]

Regardless of peoples' opinions of AoS, I think the one thing that remains a fact is that Warhammer Fantasy was a failing non-profitable product line.

By their own making. This often gets said as some way to justify why they killed it off officially, but the truth is they strangled it themselves years ago when they upped the model requirements whilst simultaneously at least doubling the price of all core infantry. No wonder people gave up and looked elsewhere! I know I did, and I'm a super Old World fanboy!

[pixelgeek]

Leave it alone. Don't blow it up. 

But that wasn't selling product at the levels they wanted so its not really an option that they would take.

Leave the Old World intact, but refocus on it's gritty darkness, the threats in the cracks between civilized society, get it edgy and threatening again.

They certainly did do that in their RPG products but I don't know how successful it would have been in a mass-combat game. Those sorts of things tend to be what you read in the fluff but not see on the table.

Downscale the rules from pushing blocks of infantry and monsters around to a (middling to large) skirmish level.

I think this would have been an interesting idea but don't forget that they want to be selling 40K levels of models. Making a game with smaller model requirements only works if the market for it explodes.

Tap in to the popularity and market of fantasy skirmish games like Frostgrave, Lion/Dragon Rampant, et al. In other words, do those things that made Mordheim a hit, but expand across the entire setting.

Those games work, I think, because they allow you to use minis from any company and they are good games. GW is not a company known for the quality of their rules.

Make standalone boardgames like Betrayal at Calth and Deathwatch Killteam for Fantasy (Re-use the Warhammer Quest brand, perhaps?).

I view those "games" as a way for GW to make even more money selling sets of minis. I don't understand them in any way other than a fake value-added with highly desirable figures which makes them large sums of cash. Execution Force was okay, Betrayal at Calth was garbage and I didn't even bother looking at the rules for Deathwatch. No-one outside of GW fans is going to drop the type of cash for those "games".

[3 fingers]

Beaky marine set,hmmm I think that would sell very well! Hell depending on what it's like I could be tempted,
Though if they try cramming too much detail on them ,I wouldn't bother.

[pixelgeek]

By their own making. This often gets said as some way to justify why they killed it off officially, but the truth is they strangled it themselves years ago when they upped the model requirements whilst simultaneously at least doubling the price of all core infantry. No wonder people gave up and looked elsewhere! I know I did, and I'm a super Old World fanboy!

I think that the miniature market in general is moving away from mass-combat games and that Warhammer Fantasy was stuck no matter the changes. All of the really popular games these days have small model counts and we're even seeing professional skirmish games come out for Napoleonic and other historical periods.

Bolt Action sells at our store but outside a few old-timers, games like Black Powder, Hail Caesar and other just sit on the shelf. The last large sale of Napoleonic figures was for a group playing Songs of Drums and Shakos.

This is not a market that GW wants to be in. If they were happy with small but profitable sales then they never would have canned Specialist Games and their Black Industries RPG line.

AoS seems to be a perfect example of a lost cause. It can't radically change without pissing off its existing fan-base and the market seems to have gone somewhere that GW doesn't want to go.

My main issue with the game is that the background makes no sense for new players. Without reference to its existing setting you can't explain it to a new player and the game size is still far too large for most new players to get involved with.

[throwsFireball]

The funniest part of this whole fiasco is that Total War Warhammer (still irritated it's not called Total Warhammer) is coming out. When Dawn of War came out, 40k got a HUGE sales boost. And I mean that I think GW pretty much doubled their 40k take that year or something similarly silly.

Also, Warhammer Fantasy made up about 30% of GW's revenue stream. What that turns into in terms of profit, I don't know. It's certainly more than Age of Sigmar is making, though.

[Mr. Peabody]

My main issue with the game is that the background makes no sense for new players. Without reference to its existing setting you can't explain it to a new player and the game size is still far too large for most new players to get involved with.

That's spot on!

[pixelgeek]

The funniest part of this whole fiasco is that Total War Warhammer (still irritated it's not called Total Warhammer) is coming out. When Dawn of War came out, 40k got a HUGE sales boost. And I mean that I think GW pretty much doubled their 40k take that year or something similarly silly.

They certainly got a revenue boost from their part of the profits of those games but I don't ever recall a store talking about doubling 40K sales.

Also, Warhammer Fantasy made up about 30% of GW's revenue stream. What that turns into in terms of profit, I don't know. It's certainly more than Age of Sigmar is making, though.

GW has, AFAIK, never split their sales off by individual lines. The best estimates that I have seen of current Fantasy v. 40K sales is that they are about 10% of their 40K sales. That certainly is in line with what we experience at our store and what I have heard from other retailers.

I doubt that we'll ever see any specific sales data from GW unless its to crow about increased sales. I doubt that their sales are even at their previous levels though. Any sales bump from Total War Warhammer would not really make a significant difference.

Besides, if I can play a huge mass-combat game on my PC why would I want to spend months and 1000's of dollars to attempt to duplicate that experience on the tabletop?

[Elbows]

I just don't see any way out of it for GW.  Regardless of how much people would have liked to see it stay around, and regardless of whose fault it was - it was bad business to keep the line running as it was.  I wonder if people would have accepted a 35% downsize in the line of kits if that had been an option instead.  Just cull a couple of races and kill off random units which don't sell.

I would have preferred to see a Warhammer Warband style game or something, but they went the opposite route.  It looks like they went straight to the 40K style of stuff (huge and insanely expensive miniatures).  I'm curious if it will work.  I don't think it will, despite a lot of people saying AoS is fun to play.  I just don't think the world has anywhere near the fan draw that 40K does/did.

Sadly all this means is that I'm concerned about a re-release of Warhammer Quest (how do you do that if the world doesn't exist anymore?). 

[throwsFireball]

They certainly got a revenue boost from their part of the profits of those games but I don't ever recall a store talking about doubling 40K sales.

I definitely remember it being somewhere in one of their financials.

At the very least, their stocks increased from 600~ to 800~ after the release of Dawn of War... And then promptly crashed down to 400 the next year because of some fuck up or another.

GW has, AFAIK, never split their sales off by individual lines. The best estimates that I have seen of current Fantasy v. 40K sales is that they are about 10% of their 40K sales. That certainly is in line with what we experience at our store and what I have heard from other retailers.

I doubt that we'll ever see any specific sales data from GW unless its to crow about increased sales. I doubt that their sales are even at their previous levels though. Any sales bump from Total War Warhammer would not really make a significant difference.

See above. Also, who plays fantasy and 40k used to vary greatly depending on geographic region. Some areas had a lot more fantasy and some a lot more 40k. The area near me had quite a few fantasy players who just ended up quitting GW altogether.

Besides, if I can play a huge mass-combat game on my PC why would I want to spend months and 1000's of dollars to attempt to duplicate that experience on the tabletop?

It's a very different experience.

[Cubs]

But that wasn't selling product at the levels they wanted so its not really an option that they would take.

I think that's the real issue isn't it? There's what the customers want, there's what is a sound business decision, and there's what GW want. I think the it's always sound business to give customers what they want whenever possible. If you're trying to work to a model that is unpopular with your market, you're probably not working to a good model.