The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Landsknecht]

To be honest I'm not really sure comparing 40k and x wing is truely relatable. X wing is basically ready in a box, no painting required and has an already established huge fanbase based upon a series of movies, whereas 40k fanbase is based purely upon itself so has done very well in that regard. X wing probably doesn't have the social stigma that surrounds other wargames.

I've re-painted my Rebels for X-wing.  I have gotten to play more games of X-wing in the past year then the last ten years with my 40k Imperial Guard army.  Both games you are pushing tiny toys around a table so I would say it has the same social stigma.

[beefcake]

Yes but with x wing you don't need to be painting them. I think that is part of what people find strange about our hobby, having to paint your own toys. And the Reason x wing sells so well is because its fanbase doesn't need to rely on people that would visit the likes of this forum, miniature enthusiasts, its fanbase may come from the hordes of Star Wars fans out there. Of course I have no evidence to back this up, it's all just conjecture. By the same reckoning you could say monopoly is the same as imperial assault, pushing little plastic pieces around a board.

[The Mystic Spiral]

Yes but with x wing you don't need to be painting them. I think that is part of what people find strange about our hobby, having to paint your own toys. And the Reason x wing sells so well is because its fanbase doesn't need to rely on people that would visit the likes of this forum, miniature enthusiasts, its fanbase may come from the hordes of Star Wars fans out there. Of course I have no evidence to back this up, it's all just conjecture. By the same reckoning you could say monopoly is the same as imperial assault, pushing little plastic pieces around a board.

Reading reviews of the GW board games like Betrayal at Calth, Genestealery One, etc. The primarily board game people seem to quite like the games but are really thrown by the need to build such complex figures. Painting board game figures seems to be a  niche within a niche.

Board games are way more popular than our kind of games, most toy shops and even some WH Smiths sell X Wing. Can't really say the same for "proper" wargames stuff. Throw in a bigger audience plus Star Wars, plus Star Wars with new films coming out no wonder it's outselling poor old 40k.

Purely anecdotal, but a few wargames/rpg shops have told me that most of their business now comes from Magic The Gathering and board games. They always shift a load of X Wing too.

Anyway GW is a model company, not a games company, they said only 20% of their customers play the game. Must be true.

Kind of wonder if their data is built from people like me who use the "I only paint" gambit to avoid the interminable chat and upselling?

J

[Vermis]

Reading reviews of the GW board games like Betrayal at Calth, Genestealery One, etc. The primarily board game people seem to quite like the games but are really thrown by the need to build such complex figures. Painting board game figures seems to be a  niche within a niche.

That's if they were primarily intended to be board games, rather than a way to get gamers to buy a big chunk of minis. I don't doubt that GW want a piece of the boardgame pie, but it's possible they're not sure how to break out of their rut and appeal to boardgamers, rather than their usual captive audience. (Seems like a relatively simple set of research and business decisions, but we're talking about GW here)

Purely anecdotal, but a few wargames/rpg shops have told me that most of their business now comes from Magic The Gathering and board games. They always shift a load of X Wing too.

I've heard this from different people, myself. That is, different people around the world who talk to shop owners, not shop owners themselves.

Anyway GW is a model company, not a games company, they said only 20% of their customers play the game. Must be true.

Kind of wonder if their data is built from people like me who use the "I only paint" gambit to avoid the interminable chat and upselling?

J

What data?



 

[The Voivod]

I think that is part of what people find strange about our hobby, having to paint your own toys.

Just my experience of course, but I find people tend to understand and appreciate the creative part.
How the game works with the ammount of rules and (gasp) no board gets the most frowns I´ve noticed.
Still, noticing a stigma has been rarer and rarer. Many find it quite interesting as long as you know how to present it.
At least there´s game pieces and clear victory conditions involved.
I don´t make a secret of my miniature hobby, but don´t really advertise the fact that I roleplay.
That, people just do not seem to be able to wrap their heads around.

Of course, I could have interpreted a lot of polite conversation incorrectly (just smile and nod at the crazy person and slowly back away....)

[The Mystic Spiral]

I've heard this from different people, myself. That is, different people around the world who talk to shop owners, not shop owners themselves.

Heard from the shop, but I know that it's sort of meaningless and very localised. My own experience is to never go in on a saturday cos you can't see a thing for all the MTG players cluttering the shops.

J

[pixelgeek]

To be honest I'm not really sure comparing 40k and x wing is truely relatable.

Well in the sense that you are using then it isn't really comparable. But the OP was talking about just sales figures.

[pixelgeek]

Those figures are US data, don't think they apply to UK and Europe, which is (to my knowledge) the bulk of GW's market.

Its still pretty substantial that the US market has had such a dramatic shift. The store I work at sells factors more X-Wing than it does 40K. If it wasn't for the per unit price of 40K sets then I doubt the overall sales would be even close. As it is I think we sell more in total dollar sales of X-Wing

[pixelgeek]

Reading reviews of the GW board games like Betrayal at Calth, Genestealery One, etc. The primarily board game people seem to quite like the games but are really thrown by the need to build such complex figures. Painting board game figures seems to be a  niche within a niche.

My suspicion is that the "board games" are only a way for GW to sell discounted miniatures without being seen to be selling discounted miniatures. None of the games are good enough to justify the costs

Board games are way more popular than our kind of games, most toy shops and even some WH Smiths sell X Wing.

Oddly enough one of the big US chain bookstores is now selling and promoting X-Wing. They are even having game nights.

Purely anecdotal, but a few wargames/rpg shops have told me that most of their business now comes from Magic The Gathering and board games. They always shift a load of X Wing too.

Depends on the country you live in. In the US online retailers have really killed the market for games like Warmachine. Hence the initiatives by companies like Privateer Press and Asmodee NA to limit sales to those companies to try to rebuild their brick and mortar sales.

MtG can be a big sales generator but it isn't often the profit generator that other lines can be. Especially in the US where there is a lot more discounting of prices and online competition.

Heard from the shop, but I know that it's sort of meaningless and very localised. My own experience is to never go in on a saturday cos you can't see a thing for all the MTG players cluttering the shops.

Its Friday for our store. And Tuesday. And a small group on Thursday. We do a lot of MtG sales (not sure of the profits it generates) but we still sell a lot more board games.

[Elbows]

I thought it was common knowledge that game stores can't really survive without CCGs.  It's what I've heard from darn near every gaming store I've been to in the past 10 years.  I absolutely understand that miniature wargaming is a tough nut to crack, and a difficult hobby to "get into" regardless of how you try to do it.  It's why I find silly sales procedures even more ridiculous.

You already have a difficult market, why make it more difficult on yourself?

[nic-e]

Heard from the shop, but I know that it's sort of meaningless and very localised. My own experience is to never go in on a saturday cos you can't see a thing for all the MTG players cluttering the shops.

J

I work in a pretty big game store in london and yeah, magic and x wing are two of our most popular games and the things we shift the most of in volume. I think the actual money comes more from magic and big gw releases tho, since x wing is more like a consistent trickle than a flood. ( I have noticed a slight decline in x wing lately, tho it may just be that there hasn't been a major expansion in a while to get people buying, but people are certainly playing it constantly.)

[throwsFireball]

So Valve is doing a deal to give free Dota 2 items for people who purchase Total War: Warhammer.

Special limited edition ones.

Keep in mind that Dota 2 is one of the big games (especially in Russian etc) and you start to wonder if the new CEO is shaking his head at how Kirby tried to burn the house down when he was being forced out. I mean, 40k's sales were huge after Dawn of War came out. It's probably one of the main reasons 40k was doing so much better than Fantasy in terms of sales.

[Tactalvanic]

T H F Kirby (age 65), non-executive chairman.

He has not gone anywhere...

They seem to be doing some interesting, but I don't think its GW as such but the software companies utilising the IP. they have paid for, they want to make money, regardless of GW behaviour on their investment.

I see good business sense on Valves part here.

[throwsFireball]

T H F Kirby (age 65), non-executive chairman.

He has not gone anywhere...

They seem to be doing some interesting, but I don't think its GW as such but the software companies utilising the IP. they have paid for, they want to make money, regardless of GW behaviour on their investment.

I see good business sense on Valves part here.

To be honest, that seems just like a place to shove him for internal politics.

Oh, I have no doubt it's not GW. The point I'm making is that they're gonna sell a LOT of copies to people who don't really know much about Warhammer Fantasy which then drives Warhammer Fantasy sales which...

Doesn't exist anymore.

[Tactalvanic]

Oh, I have no doubt it's not GW. The point I'm making is that they're gonna sell a LOT of copies to people who don't really know much about Warhammer Fantasy which then drives Warhammer Fantasy sales which...

Doesn't exist anymore.

yup completely agree.

But Mr Kirby is exactly where he wants to be, because of the politics he is in control of. If others were able to park him or sideline him, they would not have stopped at keeping him on the board.

Now if the company did  or does actually do very badly, it won't be because of anything he said or did, ever.