The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Ulfhednar]

Yes no baggage (:-P I do as you'll see, just from a lot longer back). I've discovered in looking back at all this that I missed out a lot too because apparently GW stayed good in places for longer than I realised at the time. Effectively everything Games Workshop from around 1990 through to current day is completely new to me, it wasn't just me that walked away when they started going plastic through the early 90's it was everyone I knew who'd previously been into them gave up on it and have never touched it since, so I've not even known anyone still involved for them to have pointed the odd thing out to me. I got some old boxes out of storage the other day that haven't been touched in over 25 years, full of just bought and abandoned GW stuff like the 'new' Harlequin box set, the new Green Knight & High Elf Pegasus & loads of recently released High Elves (with rubbish plastic horses), then all the 'new' Epic & Titan box sets with all their sprues (that was the very last thing, I thought I could do that metal and got a load of epic leads but then they went all plastic)... And a box of GW plastic Cybermen and Daleks, they were ££££ing awful.

I think for my generation (Generation X, in the UK defined by our experience of being children in & forming our principles through our experience of the 1970's, being the first fully TV bombarded / saturated children who were conned over & over again by TV advertising claiming this or that toy or game were wonder things and super quality but that turned out to be absolute plastic trash, and the generation most immersed in playing with plastic airfix toy soldiers (which was massive in the 70's, Citadel & lead miniatures originally seemed like the mature & honest upgrade to that, when they started going plastic it was like a downgrade back into trashy children's toys and being conned again it was good stuff). And from a general view, lead miniatures are art, in pewter they're quite obviously proper Arts and Crafts movement, in plastic they're just not, they're a cynical and exact opposite. The wrong generation and those in it, the architects rather than the artists got to decide and they're still deciding wrong & compounding it, like they seem adamant GW's / Citadels future is plastic.

I'd never even heard of Sisters of Battle before a month ago & they are excellent, and I've been really surprised to discover how many good metal figures GW appear to have made in the 90's, a few really beautiful ones like the Witch Hunters, that Space Marine Veteran Vanguard set (with the jumpacks), the Emperors Champion, etc, but it's impossible to do much with them as almost all the other general marines have plastic arms and weapons, it looks like an entire project to just get one unit of grunt marines sorted in metal. Even the plastic backpacks are wrong, even painted you can still see they're plastic because the light sits on the material differently & the plastic backpack is first thing you touch when you go to move a model and it screams back it's a plastic toy. When I get round to sorting out my small 40k forces (in a while after my Dredd project that is easy in comparison) I'm going to be spending loads on Rogue Trader Space Marine metal packs off ebay.

This is why Sisters of Battle are ace and why I bought some (first GW things I've bought in 25+ years and even some direct off them), because they are metal (and not on chunky steroids). But then those pictures of the upcoming plastic Sisters of Battle make me sigh, if those were metal I'd be ready to throw money at them & be really looking forward to it, in resin I wouldn't bother unless it was purely for paint and display (which doesn't excite me as I want to interact with this art, which means gaming with it), in plastic you couldn't pay me to want one. You see toilet roll, I see rolling tumbleweed, the end of the last good (metal) Citadel range (and just as I'd discovered it existed).

But the SoB are there and that's ace, good 'old' GW, and there'll be metal proxies to add some new stuff, like Raging Heroes should be doing metals for their recent Nuns with guns kickstarter. It is a massive opportunity for the smaller manufacturers and grass roots to step up to the mature art market that GW are apparently intent on abandoning, those that are still arty (not too true life) & not resin only and still do metal should do well.

[Mason]

Now, where can I get an armor plated, skull covered toilet roll chasing puppy from. With jetpack and gun options..

 
I am tempted to make one now.
 

[jon_1066]

...This is why Sisters of Battle are ace and why I bought some (first GW things I've bought in 25+ years and even some direct off them), because they are metal (and not on chunky steroids). But then those pictures of the upcoming plastic Sisters of Battle make me sigh, if those were metal I'd be ready to throw money at them & be really looking forward to it...

You obviously have a personal preference for metal as opposed to plastic but the new sisters would be impossible to produce in metal - the scrolls would be too thin to hold the model up.  Plastic has its place, I don't think you can argue that metal = art and plastic = tat.  There are some very nice plastic kits and some rubbish metal figures.  The early plastics from GW were awful (I'm thinking those Orcs) but the industry has come a long way since then. 

[YPU]

Ulfhednar, since you mention the limited availability of full metal miniatures (especially marines) you might be interested in "In the Emperors Name" its a free variant ruleset written by fans who preferred a smaller scale skirmish game with simpler rules. It's specifically focused on the 40k background but in no way derivative from the 40k rules. It can be found here: https://iten-game.org/

[Tactalvanic]

I am tempted to make one now.
 

Go on - do it...do it.. - Armored flying Puppies, will make a change from flying zombie babies and skulls..

At least then will I know where to get one from  

[Ulfhednar]

Re GW helping the hobby - I remember the 70's, an historic wargaming / model and / or fantasy gaming type shop in almost every town near me. One in Shrewsbury, Bagnall's in Stafford, a fantastic one in Hanley in Stoke, a couple in Chester, an awesome Games Workshop in Birmingham that stocked all sorts of other peoples products (an absolute wonder land), but also small retailers in Birmingham that sold odd stuff, even one guy in a Victorian type arcade trading out of an alcove no bigger than a cupboard and over a half stable door like an old cigarette vendor. I was lucky to be taken round those history wargaming & model places because my Step Dad was into modelling and historic a bit, and I discovered fantasy leads thanks to his Military Modelling that carried a Hincliffe / Skytrex ad for the Ralph Bakshi Lord of the Rings film licensed miniatures they were selling I think Christmas 1978. So I have Hinchliffe to thank :-) Then I discovered Citadel via one of those independent model shops (one in Scarborough when we were on holiday who stocked Citadels blue 1980 Catalogue), but they weren't inventing anything, Ral Partha were already doing it, Citadel just did it better & best out of everyone (least like statues, most animate & interactive, most personable).

I'm a massive fan of what they did up to late 80's early 90's, I realise now I jumped ship too soon and they continued to be excellent for longer than I thought, but what they do now (going all plastic) is false and only about commerce, and unfortunately that's almost always very short sighted. Plastic will likely make them & GW loads within their careers, by the time it is landfill and made Citadels brand no better, they won't care they're sorted.

[Ulfhednar]

Re the alternate rules, thank you I'll have a look, though I'm not really too bothered with rules, I'm almost entirely about the miniatures (just didn't want to waste money on the wrong rules). If they made leads I wouldn't care about rules like originally, we were fantasy wargaming before Warhammer was released or even proposed making it up ourselves or using the ridiculously basic rules out of Fighting Fantasy Warlock of Firetop Mountain, was just as much fun as Warhammer ended up being. The alternate rules community sounds good though and worth looking up.

Re the impracticality of those designs in lead, then imo the designs aren't right, they're like Japanese plastic manga / anime stuff (that is only collectable / valuable because they artificially contrive to make it so rare then hype it, and because it's so fashion focused, making it a fad & construct, temporary), which really considering this started out as / was a natural extension of the original English Arts and Crafts movement (just like Tolkien was), is such a sell out it's embarrassing. The sculptors are ace, the painters are ace, but I don't like the plastic direction they're having to accommodate and the material kills any inherent value in the item, they're just gaming pieces, fancy plastic counters. All GW need to do is to continue to do metal versions, even on a limited basis would be ok, but to throw it all into plastic is to throw away its greatest credibility, the fact it is quality, mature, real, and is art. Kids will get to 18 or 19 with this, their girlfriends will accuse them of playing with toys, plastic there's no argument like there was with leads, GW are turning themselves into a toy manufacturer.

edit - and I reckon this is the kind of influence they should be going with but I think they're too removed from source to get it.



Re figures for others to make to ride off GW, studying ebay, female servitors & female inquisition seem to be where it's at.

And Nuns in general, you only have to surf ebay to see what lots of people want. Metal female witch hunters, female inquisition, female servitors (like Raging Heroes zombie girls that seem set to augment their Nuns in a servitor role), Sci-Fi Nuns with guns. Sisters of Sigmar are crazy prices (and from what I've seen on blogs to some extent for converting to sci-fi).

edit - and that's not to criticise Japanese anime / manga at all, I guess because their culture was reborn new after WW2 and they reinvented themselves from almost medieval to cutting edge modern engineering and tech, plastic is like an Arts and Crafts material to & for them like it isn't for us. I saw an amazing anime style Nazgul on horse cast in plastic and painted anime style for sale a while back, was obviously going to end up being worth loads cuz the material had integrity with the culture that visualised it, made it real & was proper art. Plastic for our culture isn't 'real' (it used to mean false in slang) to be able to cross over into art like it can for them, our Arts and Crafts was / is lead / pewter, copper, silver, gold (hand workable metals), wood, stained glass, stone, jewels etc, like in (proper) Tolkien (in fact exactly like how we take those things into our Sci-Fi, 40k & Steampunk is full of those things), like we try & paint the miniatures to shine with light like the Pre-Raphs and Waterhouse, we were Victorian because we are, not plastic. To conclude rant (I knew I shouldn't go near Citadel) I think it's the case GW have stated they're going potentially totally plastic because metal is too costly for them to do, I think long term for their brand it's too costly for them not to do metal to some degree and alongside, plastic makes it mass market and affordable which it needs to be, resin is great but is about a different art (painting), it's not enough, they need metal too as their art & for their integrity.

[Ulfhednar]

Re Sisters of Battle, in case anyone is interested Canoness Veridyan in resin finecast is just now back in stock on GW's site for a lot less than people are bidding for them on ebay. I got one because I agree resin is quality, it's just imo for paint & display & not the right medium for gaming / handling (given the chance with that character I'd get both, each for a different purpose).

(I really can't see why they can't do (if needs be limited) metal runs too of all this key stuff, their reasoning is flawed, they won't change people and mostly it's those approaching middle age, the original generation coming back to the hobby with money to spend and time to put into this, they're on ebay buying old metals for loads of money and ignoring the plastic stuff and GW totally, they even bid high on GW metal stuff that's never been OOP (or certainly isn't now and doesn't seem to have been and is lots cheaper on the GW site), they just assume it is OOP cuz they think GW is all plastic now and they won't go there. GW should wake up a bit).

[Keith]

Selling metals in the U.S. and some other countries can be a nightmare, and a company the size of Games Workshop would most likely have to start including a lot of very scary health disclaimers in states like California.

Shipping costs are exceptionally high (or factor in the cost of production spread internationally). Add to this how destructive metal miniatures can be to packaging with blisters etc. getting destroyed really quickly with very light handling.

A large part of their audience, probably the majority, are going to struggle with the skills required to get a good result with metals (pinning, filling and matching mis-aligned parts etc.).

I imagine with distribution at their levels the returns rate was pretty scary too.

Those were just a few points that immediately came to mind from my own experiences. I can imagine there is almost no benefit to Games Workshop supporting metals and can sympathise with them on that. Even the production pipeline must be far more straightforward to project manage these days.

I'm a lead-head at heart but have to admit that GW have been doing wonderful things in plastic for years. It's a more than acceptable medium for the scale modelling community and no less for ours (at least in my opinion).

[Ulfhednar]

Yes I agree the plastic serves a mass market purpose for them & for many customers and great, but it is isn't what the core of the hobby is / what birthed it, GW didn't invent it they were just lucky enough to be in the right place & time as it was happening anyway, and sharp and enthusiastic enough to make the most of it, then they monopolised it, which was ok until it wasn't, but whatever it's not their's to fundamentally sell out & despoil so it suits them perfectly, though they are trying, it will end up escaping them. And re distribution, I think it's shocking American Reaper haven't had such a problem with it that they've usurped Citadel as the go to manufacturer for quality miniature characters, seems many in UK import loads while not giving Citadel a glance, because whatever GW try and pretend, plastic is not and will never be attractive or collectable, at least used for Western culture, it's a fundamental contradiction.

Btw, does anyone know if that current / latest version of Sisters of Battle Immolator has a plastic gunner? I ordered one to get free postage on the resin Canoness I bought today when they appeared back in stock but now realise it's probably a plastic gunner like in airfix kits isn't it :-(

[Keith]

Well, all seems a bit 'twenty years after the event' to me, but there you go. I sell metal figures myself, but beyond a certain volumes manufacturing is a nightmare.

For the record Reaper distribution is nothing near GWs. No shops and previously not particularly well represented in Europe. They are big certainly but even they've shifted massively into particularly affordable/cheap plastics (Bones).

At least the market is well serviced by metal alternatives these days so something for everyone.

[Charlie_]

plastic is not and will never be attractive or collectable

Well now surely that's just your (rather strong) opinion, and many people will definitely disagree.

Btw, does anyone know if that current / latest version of Sisters of Battle Immolator has a plastic gunner? I ordered one to get free postage on the resin Canoness I bought today when they appeared back in stock but now realise it's probably a plastic gunner like in airfix kits isn't it :-(

You really don't like plastic do you! You instantly disregard something if it has any ammount of plastic?

Now don't get me wrong, I like metal, and don't like BAD plastic sculpts.
I got into GW in the mid 90s, which is when plastic was getting big, but the plastic kits were definitely sub-par compared to metals, the attraction being they were cheap and easier to build up large regiments with, but you'd use metals for your characters, command groups, etc. Most of the time the plastic sets were just simpler monopose versions of existing metals, usually a bit 'chunkier' in appearance (best example being the Jes Goodwin high elf archers and spearmen. The plastics did the job, but if you could afford it, the metals did the same thing but looked so much better!)
By the late 90s they has started introducing loads of new plastic multi-part 'regiment sets', which at the time were the best thing I'd ever seen, mostly due to how you could construct your own models piece by piece, but looking back they did mostly look a bit goofy, and the metals were always better.
But today things are very different. GW has gone pretty much all plastic. I LOATHE their current style, and none of it appeals to me... but that's more to do with aesthetics rather than the material. Though having said that, a few years back (10 years) when they were doing good quality metals still alongside plastics, I was definitely preaching about how a lot of the new kits, though technically good, looked 'too plastic', and had the 'toy' look that you talk about. But now it's pretty much all plastics - though I don't like the style of the sculpts, that's just as much to do with the fact that I have no interest in GW and little interest in fantasy and sci-fi now... but I cannot deny their current kits are technically fantastic.

But let's take a look beyond GW. Look at Perry Miniatures.
They are arguably the leaders when it comes to plastic historical kits, and their plastics are FANTASTIC. Their metals are just as good sculpts, but the casting quality is notably inferior. Though once painted up they look just as good (as long as you don't look too close at certain areas), whilst you are painting them most people must surely agree the plastics are much better in every way. Their plastics definitely don't have that 'toy' quality.
BUT... with multi-part plastics, assembly is very important. I often see badly constructed Perry plastics (I'm talking about the WOTR sets here) which look awkward. But constructed well, and they look fantastic.

But other company's plastics are another story IMO. Gripping Beast, Fireforge and Conquest all have medieval / dark ages plastic sets which are MASSIVELY INFERIOR to the Perry ones, and look like goofy toys (in my opinion!). So I guess that goes to show how plastics can look bad, but when done right can look fantastic, can rival and at times better good metals.

[Elbows]

If you dislike plastics - any fore into 40K is going to be tough.  I don't care for plastics myself, but I'm not opposed to buying them.  There's something to be said about a brilliant modular plastic kit - it's tremendously purposeful in wargaming for a lot of folks.  I like metals for the heft and simplicity of the sculpts (I like the simplicity of painting single piece metals).

If you refuse to work with plastics you're making a conscious decision based on your opinion, and you'll have to suffer for it.

[Ulfhednar]

:-) After double double checking it definitely no longer says it's any part metal I've just cancelled my Immolator (& also my Canoness resin otherwise would have paid postage on it) order, & my earlier order for a Black Templar Champion resin, I can't face the risk of a warping sword (though nothing against more compact resins for paint & display, like fine delicate bone china you wouldn't game with it but it can be real art, I may order the resin Canoness again if it's still available if more metals to order later).

Re the distribution and production issues of lead, if it was some leads alongside plastics (like Reaper do) everyone's happy and no problems (like it seems 90's was), it's plastic only that makes no sense except for GW who I'd guess want to go there because their own leads are too much competition for their plastic & resin, and for what they want people to be into for an operation most profitable and easy to run for them / their shareholders / dividends. But it's not up to them to dictate, the market will, and that will be potentially worse than bearing a more difficult and less profitable metal side product to their main plastic range that is actually their core brand & gives their entire range credibility it doesn't have without it. Re the age issue, that was the whole thing with leads, they were adult, which emphasised plastic was for children, they shouldn't take away leads from adults because it's best for kids, they shouldn't take the prospect of leads away from children looking forward to becoming adults with access to superior adult things. And re the environmental issues, however light and easier it is to manufacture and ship plastic at the time, ultimately it's just man made land fill waiting to happen, leads aren't, they're natural, recyclable, and those that survive & are good are little pieces of art & history, that people will always value because they're metal and real.

Re Perry Miniatures and historic plastic, nothing against that at all (in fact I have a load of plastic Esci Napoleonic stuff that was affordable & fun to wargame with while I was hating on Citadel plastics end 80's), but that historic stuff is about realism so it can get away with a non real material, it's not Arts and Crafts / a product of the imagination in the same way Fantasy & Sci-Fi are, it doesn't claim to be art or want to be collectable, it's just a tool (and a really good one that is great for immersion).

I think I get it extremely bad because of being exactly the wrong generation for plastic (which is what made me exactly right generation to have supported Citadel & GW when it all started, who gave us quality leads instead of plastic), but thing is there's going to be a lot of my generation coming back to this hobby as they find they have the time, space, & money to in middle age & then into retirement, I really think GW are going wrong by going totally plastic at exactly the wrong time, it's like them missing out on their own inheritance.

[Ajsalium]

You haven't had a contemporary plastic model on your hands, have you?