The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Ulfhednar]

Well a spade is a spade, people who can sculpt miniatures are gifted artists, what they can do deserves infinitely more respect than what a miniature knitting machine can do. And it's not just an academic issue, it's practical too because when a human sculpts something, the fact it might be slightly imperfect / characterful in a certain way because of it gives the thing itself real life, brings out the human in the subject, perfection like 3d printing seeks to achieve is wholly artificial.

re the light reflecting properties of lead v plastic, that plastic always looks artificial & low quality and that light travels into (natural material) objects quite a lot before coming back so that natural material has a natural / merged with reality real look unlike unnatural materials like plastic, even through many of layers of paint, they're just established facts and reality, and are evident for anyone to see. Just go compare the panel look on a Scimitar or TVR to any metal car, no amount of money or paint processes can make plastic look like it isn't plastic, if it was possible Companies like that would have done it and made tons more money (by selling more, because plastic looking things are low quality). Anyway it's not worth arguing, I only came on thread to ask about the rules then got sidetracked when I saw those new Sisters of Battle plastic figures that I hadn't previously seen, and that seem to confirm that the metal (proper) Sister of Battle range is effectively ended (which is why it got my attention so much as that's obviously disappointing for someone who has the metal SoB figures).

[YPU]

While I would like to make a couple of counter-arguments, I think we might be better of discussing this in a separate topic in the future. This general GW topic was created because the discussions on other subjects often got "polluted" by banter and discussion about GW. It would be somewhat ironic if this topic then were to suffer from the same "pollution" by the big CAD 3d discussion.

[Andrew Rae]

But those artificial materials don't form part of the object afterwards. It's not about a natural process, it's about ending up with an object that is naturally right and so communicates itself as real. I think it really must be a generational thing, we didn't only have art miniatures, we had indie / art music too, it's all gone so sold out & plastic, and the later generations don't see it, they really do think architecture is art and it's really not. Maybe we need a Brexit for GW, send them off to lego land and get some English art back.

edit - and 3D printing is not art, it's a way of usurping it, it shouldn't be anywhere near this.

But I thought Arts and Crafts was all about the process - there is not separation between process and final item.

Also, a spade is a spade but the rest is entirely subjective.

[jon_1066]

We're in danger of veering off into "what is art?" 

[YPU]

It would be very interesting to see the surface difference between white metal and plastic under a powerful microscope.  I am sure there would be a difference but how well that would translate after three or more coats of paint is an interesting question.

Oh man, that brings me back to my metallurgy lessons. Cooling speed and temperature also changes the properties of many metals, if you let gold cool very slowly it will start to form crystal structures that are shaped like the original elder sign. 

[Ulfhednar]

But I thought Arts and Crafts was all about the process - there is not separation between process and final item.

Also, a spade is a spade but the rest is entirely subjective.

:-) That it's hand made and a natural thing, not that the process uses not nice / not natural materials. Look at William Blake and his acid etching, acid couldn't be less Arts and Crafts style / organically nice but the output is the epitome of it and was a massive influence in what came subsequently. Similar stuff with others using mercury to make gold stick to things. In art it's about what you end up, the object itself.

Anyway things to do, Happy Christmas :-)

[Andrew Rae]

To you too. It has been an interesting digression.

And while I would never wish to go back to sculpting tiny figures with a pin (I feel much more enjoyment and creativity in digital) I did just lose half an hours work due to a brief power cut.

Swings and roundabouts.

[Charlie_]

This is starting to remind me of the analog vs digital conflict in music production.... vinyl vs cds... etc....

[Ulfhednar]

To you too. It has been an interesting digression.

And while I would never wish to go back to sculpting tiny figures with a pin (I feel much more enjoyment and creativity in digital) I did just lose half an hours work due to a brief power cut.

Swings and roundabouts.

oh wow I have your killer Hong Kong bot lady things on my list to get (which is quite a long list and will take a long time), I wondered if they might be digital but as robots they really work, are a brilliant design & in metal proper quality :-) And these (that unless I'm mistaken think are also yours) are some of my favourite miniatures and top of my list to get.



edit - I know I'm not on my own with this plastic issue, everyone around my generation I knew dropped GW as trash quality childish toys when the plastic started to appear (it really was a step back into 70's trash), but maybe I have it even worse because I have a certain type (there are various very different ones, mine is ok) of ADHD traits which can seem a tiny bit Asperger, I can feel things I'm looking at in all my senses, maybe why I originally got so hooked on the lead minis so instantly & early, they just ring true, they capture and hold reality while it just slides off plastic. And I don't think it makes me an exceptional case so something they can afford to ignore commercially, rather I'm just much more aware of & saying instinctive truths others aren't so conscious off but are still affected & steered by.

[Duncan McDane]

Well, to each his own. I don't like plastic as a medium to cast miniatures in parts on sprue, but as long as they are boardgame miniatures ( the bigger CMON stuff, some of the larget Myth and Bones figures ) it's perfectly fine with me. Digisculpting I also don't like, since it's nigh impossible tio get the character and natural flows of live things into a 2D drawing which artificially transfers into a 3D print. I have quite a few of those and no, the finer detail like hair is problematic, the curving in cloaks and robes too often looks way off, top detail isn't always sharp so no, when given a choice I prefer hand-made and hand-cast metals and am willing to pay for that aswell  .

But back on topic, I must say the designs of some of the GW releases is pretty awesome. Won't buy them, though, since I don't like plastic model kits being used as gaming miniatures, but als long as GW keeps on re-releasing older favourites in metal I'll remain a loyal customer of theirs...

[Ulfhednar]

Totally agree with all of that (though don't have enough experience of digi-casts to know in detail, some figures just stand out as having an artificial / machine look to them). Totally agree some of GW's figures are superb, those new SoB seraphim look great (though the sculpt is obviously for plastic and the face is very much like a toy doll / Disney because of it, would be an instant head swap), but it's not happening because it's plastic only that they couldn't pay me to want, which is why it's so frustrating, especially as this now seems to be it, what Citadel figures there are already available is all there'll ever be.

But to (try to) leave the thread totally on topic, yes it's great they keep reissuing old leads, there's some 1990's Inquisition people gone on their site for sale again (listed in Internet only offers) that you'd be paying much more for on ebay to get old ones. Although people are still buying much higher on ebay for leads that WG are selling new on their site, because a load of people assume they only do plastic now and so don't go near them, it has negtively defined their brand & undermined their reach). And reasonably so, there's no prospect of new metals to keep checking them for, and most of the old figures they bring back are only offered in resin rather than metal which is of zero use (imo resin is great for occasional special compact figures that won't warp for paint & display, but it's wrong for gaming. I don't get why WG think 'collectors' wouldn't want to game / interact with their collections to be content with paint and display resin, it's not like paint & display was at the core of this hobby & the reason for GW's success, Golden Demon etc rode off the back off it and came later, we were buying masses of figures long time before any decent painted ones started to turn up, you only have to look at early White Dwarfs to see this hobby wasn't about paint & display for a long time). They won't condition adults to fit in with them, especially my generation who are the ones coming back to the hobby throwing the money about on ebay for old leads, cuz they're Gen X and can't be commercially conditioned (or rather they already were as children but in an extremely negative / cynical way, precisely the thing that WG originally benefited from as my generation flooded away from 1970's plastic trash for kids to Citadel's quality grown up leads). WG will just not get their money.

[Queeg]

Being watching this discussion, very interesting . . .

So it's odd but being same generation I don't have the same views at all, but then I'm only 50 and so probably can't be considered a true adult. My sci-fi gaming started with Citadel back when the first figures and magazine were roleplaying orientated. Apart from playing the original Rogue Trader I've always used their figures with other rules (although own several editions of core rules and codex's) and have always been more interested in the look and conversion/setting possibilities of their stuff.

However the same as many older player/hobbyists I pretty much abandoned GW 8-10 years ago. My reasons were insane pricing/quality/value compared to other ranges and when they finally chucked out the support (figures and games) for specialty games Spacehulk/Mordhiem/Necromundia, all of where we were playing.  At the time there was a general decline in their sculpting quality too, they were dumbing down their stuff, in their "skull" phase and basically apart from a few character figs a lot of the ranges became bland to bad.

Now (curse them), and despite not being interested in their "core" systems of Sigmar and 40K, some of their new releases are getting really eye catching and tempting, whether metal or plastic. For me though I do prefer good quality plastics (sharp and detailed) as I like to convert stuff. The RTB beakies were a god send when they first came out and I quickly and easily made my own prone, kneeling and running poses, replacing the stand and shite ... er deliver pose.

On metals vrs plastics, for me the material is irrelevant if I like the figure, if the poses and detail are there it will get my interest. For the actual tabletop player base plastics are simply the way to go, ticking the ease of assembly and painting boxes. The cursed filing, assembly/pinning, painting and transport issues being the bane of metals in general. And some of their metals were rough, no question. Even on high end character figures, excessive flash, mould shift and soft detail could be equally present while others being sharp and close to perfection.

What plastic doesn't do however is add to the perceived value of the pure "collector". I can easily see the CMON crowd not liking a wholesale change to plastic whatever the quality as it's a bit harder to hawk a $300 paint job on something with no weight. And army resale value is also vastly lower, but then that's good for GWs business model as they need front end sales. They get no margin or royalty from collectors or "rare" resellers. The real reason GW kept metals though was for low volume figures (command and specialty) and low sale ranges, not to create any "art" value, it just wasn't economic to cut high cost steel moulds for that stuff. Now a lot of mould cutting is more accurate/automated and that has drastically reduced some of the cost of making plastics not to mention styrene resin is vastly cheaper than white metal compounds. BTW white metal isn't a "natural" substance, it's a man made alloy (and usually contains some pretty toxic stuff to make it workable) just like plastic.     

All said and done probably the main difference is I'm not a collector looking to make money from the metal/art. If I like a range for some tabletop use or an individual figure for the display cabinet I'll get it, no matter what it's made from. And 3D mastering has come a long way so I equally consider those now too, check out figures form Reedoak or Assault Models for what is possible. Early 3D was very average but was largely programme and experience limited. The lastest stuff is capable of doing things equal or better to a 3-up sculptor, but exactly as in traditional sculpting, the final result comes down to the experience, visualisation talent, skill and equipment of the digital sculptor.

Overall I'm now slightly impressed with GWs latest direction .... haven't forgotten their nefarious past though

[Keith]

All of that ... 

[Ulfhednar]

There is definitely a generational factor involved, I know from my database marketing career that it's an established thing and something to work with. I'm 46 and probably at the sharp end of my group, when our generation came of age from 87ish there was suddenly a different more cynical independent popular culture vibe than only a few years earlier. And the next generation (Y, apparently) weren't long behind and were even worse (they had the Tango ads made for them, on the basis they were so cynical they'd reject any product that tried to sell itself as false so they just acted daft trying to get name recognition). (It was a culture bubble that can be seen in lots of things that starts much earlier with a peak in the 60's then receding, but takes some step changes up through late 80's early 90's before it ends around end of 20th Cent with everything very placid / accepting again, because by then product quality had improved enough not to wreck relationships with kids and marketing / organisations had got sophisticated enough to communicate & condition effectively.

And as well there was / is a fundamental difference in people in the hobby, some were more interested in the games and scenarios and saw the miniatures as tools and / or opportunities, others driven by the miniatures and everything else was the tool / opportunity / vehicle for them. And that might be because or as well as, another fundamental difference in people where some are architects and others are artists (evident in microcosm in early Pink Floyd between art school Barrett and architect school the rest of them, and their respective audiences).

It's great some people are happy with GW being entirely plastic and no new metal, but it is only some people not the whole market, it's undeniably going to lose them interest / reach, integrity (it is them divorcing themselves from their heritage), sales, and so money just as things are, but potentially it will be on an increasingly significant basis (in relation to their market share) as my generation with my kind of attitude drift back to the hobby through middle age & retirement and who'll want better than plastic, who'll want the real thing in metal rather than a plastic model of it.

[Dr Mathias]

I don't mind metal or plastic, or certain resins for that matter. The material doesn't seem to produce different results as far as painting goes, unless I'm missing something. The quality of the sculpt and the production value is my primary concern. But then again I have been said to persevere and 'polish turds' here and there too so I may not have good taste

'Finecast'... bad experiences. Mantic 'Restic'... very bad experiences.

I'm not quite sure why GW didn't go with metal or plastic on that limited releases Canonness though. I feel like anyone with sense (in before 'yes, but we're talking about GW' ) would know that it would be a best seller and would need to be made out of something suitable for volume.