The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Too Bo Coo]

Too much? Yes, but mostly books/rules. Of course, they cannot release rules upfront all in one go first after their experience with Chapterhouse, so we're somewhat stuck with this release model. I don't blame GW, but a free digital rules delivery system and free online army builder would benefit both GW and their customers enormously in this regard. Releases would then feel less overwhelming.

Too expensive? Definitely. They always have been though, and I don't want to get into the debates all over again right now about what miniatures should cost. Suffice to say that their bundle deals which work out at "discounts" of 25-70% of the separate contents' combined RRP have been flying off the shelves for a reason, and have even tempted old vets back to GW. To me, that basically highlights what they should cost to start with - and I'm pretty certain that sales across the board would rise overwhelmingly if they did.

Very little character? Hmm, yes and no. I don't find crude and wobbly-sculpted models to be "characterful" any more than clinically digital and awkwardly-posed plastic models do. The GW starter box models and their single-figure clampacks are great examples of what can be done. That plastic clampack Brian Nelson Nurgle Lord is a perfect example of a miniature that hits all the classic notes but brings the crisp detailing of a modern techniques to the sculpt. Even in cast in metal or resin, sculptors like Andrew Rae show that there needs be no loss of character just because it's a digital sculpt.

To bring the topic back a little, those green Sigmarine riders are a great example - the birds look fantastic, but the riders on them much less so. In fact, on some of the models, it looks like they're barely holding on!

Sorry, when I wrote 'too much' I meant the minis.  The 'fantasy' stuff seems way way over the top.  I'm not sure if it's to just solidly define their IP, sell bigger and more expensive models or some combination of the two.

[Hobgoblin]

Sorry, when I wrote 'too much' I meant the minis.  The 'fantasy' stuff seems way way over the top.  I'm not sure if it's to just solidly define their IP, sell bigger and more expensive models or some combination of the two.

It's a thought I've voiced before on this thread, but I wonder what would happen if GW pulled out a box of - for example - utterly generic, low-fantasy orcs. Not steroidal ape-things in medieval space suits, but ugly, gangly, pot-bellied monsters of the sort they used to make in, say, 1984-5. And with all the market-leading qualities of design, finish and multi-part options that their current models possess.(Imagine the option to make the whole box with pig-snouted D&D heads ...)

I can't help but think that they'd absolutely hoover up the 'long tail' of RPGers and wargamers who aren't in thrall to their increasingly marmitish fantasy IP.

[nic-e]

It's a thought I've voiced before on this thread, but I wonder what would happen if GW pulled out a box of - for example - utterly generic, low-fantasy orcs. Not steroidal ape-things in medieval space suits, but ugly, gangly, pot-bellied monsters of the sort they used to make in, say, 1984-5. And with all the market-leading qualities of design, finish and multi-part options that their current models possess.(Imagine the option to make the whole box with pig-snouted D&D heads ...)

I can't help but think that they'd absolutely hoover up the 'long tail' of RPGers and wargamers who aren't in thrall to their increasingly marmitish fantasy IP.

People would complain about GW pandering to them and claim they are too expensive/have the wrong ears/don't like the coat buttons ect ect ect/.

[Andrew May]

It's a thought I've voiced before on this thread, but I wonder what would happen if GW pulled out a box of - for example - utterly generic, low-fantasy orcs. Not steroidal ape-things in medieval space suits, but ugly, gangly, pot-bellied monsters of the sort they used to make in, say, 1984-5. And with all the market-leading qualities of design, finish and multi-part options that their current models possess.(Imagine the option to make the whole box with pig-snouted D&D heads ...)

I can't help but think that they'd absolutely hoover up the 'long tail' of RPGers and wargamers who aren't in thrall to their increasingly marmitish fantasy IP.

There's a Kickstarter for you to put together

[beefcake]

Well I went and bought Total War Warhammer. Will be downloading it shortly. $12 USD from humble bundle monthly subscription. What a deal! I'm wondering if there is a catch though. I can opt out of the monthly deal straight away so I don't need to pay again. Here's a link for anyone interested (You get a steam key when you purchase it)

[Malebolgia]

And the link

https://www.humblebundle.com/monthly/?mcID=102:589507cc2190d444315a801e:ot:56cec9d7733462ca894851fc:1&utm_source=Humble+Bundle+Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2017_02_06_February2017_Drop_ForHonor&linkID=5898c99a6dc3608c6c8b4569&utm_content=cta_button0

[Braxandur]

There is no catch. I've been buying those bundles for quite a whil and in the last months also got vermintinde and Mordheim for a similar price, together with a lot more of nice games which I'll never have time for...

[3 fingers]

It's a thought I've voiced before on this thread, but I wonder what would happen if GW pulled out a box of - for example - utterly generic, low-fantasy orcs. Not steroidal ape-things in medieval space suits, but ugly, gangly, pot-bellied monsters of the sort they used to make in, say, 1984-5. And with all the market-leading qualities of design, finish and multi-part options that their current models possess.(Imagine the option to make the whole box with pig-snouted D&D heads ...)

I can't help but think that they'd absolutely hoover up the 'long tail' of RPGers and wargamers who aren't in thrall to their increasingly marmitish fantasy IP.

Lancer miniatures do decent metal orcs cheap not pig faced but chain mail etc.

[Major_Gilbear]

It's a thought I've voiced before on this thread, but I wonder what would happen if GW pulled out a box of - for example - utterly generic, low-fantasy orcs. Not steroidal ape-things in medieval space suits, but ugly, gangly, pot-bellied monsters of the sort they used to make in, say, 1984-5. And with all the market-leading qualities of design, finish and multi-part options that their current models possess.(Imagine the option to make the whole box with pig-snouted D&D heads ...)

I can't help but think that they'd absolutely hoover up the 'long tail' of RPGers and wargamers who aren't in thrall to their increasingly marmitish fantasy IP.

Two quick thoughts on this:

1) Why would GW care to make something over which they have no control over? They don't have any of these models in their fantasy/sci-fi worlds any more (for 25+ years), and have made great and obvious moves to establish their own lore and thier own look. Releasing "utterly generic" miniatures for somebody else's game doesn't really feel like they'd be getting a return on the design and world-building effort they've put in so far.

2) Why would you want/need GW to release these for you? If they are "utterly generic", wouldn't you be better off petitioning somebody else to make them?

People would complain about GW pandering to them and claim they are too expensive/have the wrong ears/don't like the coat buttons ect ect ect/.

Also very true. I see the same pickiness over the very early 1980-something sculpts as I see over the modern ones. What if the minis are too big? Or too short? Or the heads aren't quite what you wanted? Fitting in with somebody else's view is always very risky for any manufacturer.

On this sort of subject, Northsar recently put out some fairly classically-styled plastic Gnoll that looked like they should tick similar boxes that you've asked for in your Hobgoblins. Yet I'm having a hard time finding any user-painted examples or even much discussion of them on the 'net. I therefore think that you might be over-estimating the the 'long tail' of RPGers' desire to hoover anything up in the sort of bulk required to make economically-priced plastics viable.


Edit:

For your plastic Hobgoblins, have you looked at GW's Goblin Warriors? I think they'd combine well with Wargames Factory's Orcs to give you the look that you're after.

[Hobgoblin]

Two quick thoughts on this:

1) Why would GW care to make something over which they have no control over? They don't have any of these models in their fantasy/sci-fi worlds any more (for 25+ years), and have made great and obvious moves to establish their own lore and thier own look. Releasing "utterly generic" miniatures for somebody else's game doesn't really feel like they'd be getting a return on the design and world-building effort they've put in so far.

Why? To steal everyone else's lunch money, of course!  

If the models were generic, there would be no need to worry about control. That's the point.

And it would hardly hamper their own world-building projects. All they would need to do to include generic models is print some stats for them.

Citadel's success was founded on generic models. Then they developed a pretty generic setting for fantasy games (the Old World), which arguably became less generic (and perhaps less popular) as they refined it. They've now moved to a much more niche setting, which means that they're no longer appealing to a fairly large "generic fantasy" audience. I just wonder why they don't pounce on that market.

2) Why would you want/need GW to release these for you? If they are "utterly generic", wouldn't you be better off petitioning somebody else to make them?

To be clear: this isn't a personal plea! I've got enough old lead (not least after some recent eBay extravagance ...) to last for decades. I just wonder why GW doesn't think about doing what made it (or rather Citadel) such a success in the first place: making the best miniatures out there for use in all manner of games.

On this sort of subject, Northsar recently put out some fairly classically-styled plastic Gnoll that looked like they should tick similar boxes that you've asked for in your Hobgoblins. Yet I'm having a hard time finding any user-painted examples or even much discussion of them on the 'net. I therefore think that you might be over-estimating the the 'long tail' of RPGers' desire to hoover anything up in the sort of bulk required to make economically-priced plastics viable.

These guys? Now, I really like them, but I think the gnoll is hardly the most commercial choice of monster. Great for D&D players, yes, but I agree with you that RPGers aren't ever going to be a vast market - and especially not for niche monsters.

I see the long tail as being composed chiefly of fantasy wargamers, with RPGers making up a much smaller element. I suspect few RPGers ever play with appropriate miniatures for each encounter, unless they're drawing on a decades-old collection or purposefully limiting their encounters to models they have. But add up all the players of non-AOS massed-battle and skirmish games, and I suspect they come to quite a total.

Now, lots of miniature manufacturers make generic orcs (like GW used to). I suspect that GW could, if they were so inclined, release a set of generic orcs that were simply much better than everyone else's. Imagine a set of orcs that were as good, or even better, than the GW ungor sprues (some of their nicest multipart kits for my money - good dynamism in the poses and yet nicely understated). Perhaps quite pricy - say £30 a box for 10 - but with loads of options. For example, you might have three or four different sorts of heads - "classic" (i.e Tolkienesque), pig-faced, beetle-browed and lantern-jawed in a C15 style, D&Dish hobgoblins or whatever.

You might even have a versatile "Evil Humanoids" kit that could be made up as various monsters, and then "Armoured Evil Humanoids", "Evil Humanoid Specialists" and so on. And then "Small Evil Humanoids" (goblin and kobold heads, and whatever else). Rinse and repeat for dwarfs, etc.

Now, all you need to do to include them in AOS is knock up a "war scroll", right? And you could even include some primitive tech weapons on the sprue for use as 40K "planetary natives" ...

For your plastic Hobgoblins, have you looked at GW's Goblin Warriors? I think they'd combine well with Wargames Factory's Orcs to give you the look that you're after.

Thanks! But I'm not actually after plastic hobgoblins; I was merely suggesting that GW could do well by adding some generic stuff to its lines - precisely because I think GW would do it better than anyone else. The Wargames Factory orcs are a good example of where others  have fallen short. I've played around with them a bit, but the awful hands and arms are really limiting (the GW warg-rider arms improve them no end, but it's right arm only, alas; the Frostgrave gnoll arms are probably the solution). And there's a schoolboy error in having the only bare head with an eyepatch.

I think the comparative quality of the GW goblins you link to (all reservations about the film design aside, those are great little critters) shows the opportunity here.

[nic-e]

Games workshop stopped being generic years ago, if they ever were. Their style has always been fantasy ramped up to 11.perhaps that just seems generic since they have been the go to fantasy game maker for pushing 40 years.

As to why would they not make generic models for general use?  Why should they bother?  They effectively spawned an army of companies doing just that to cash in on the bed for warhammer models,  but gw has always maintained its position of being the best. Why make something generic that lowers the standard of the product line to compete with your copy cats, when you can just continue making your own stylised stuff and having the industry follow?

I think you're confusing gw and citadel as they have been for the last few decades with what they were during their very early origins before they set themselves a style.

[Major_Gilbear]

Basically as nic-e says.

Why? To steal everyone else's lunch money, of course!  

GW aren't really interested in your lunch money though - that's what their paints and hobby accessories are for.
They are much more interested in your Birthday and Christmas money, and in your parent's wallets (opened by your pester-power).

If the models were generic, there would be no need to worry about control. That's the point.

No, GW want exclusive control of what they make - and also of anything they "create" even if they never actually make any models for it. That's the point, rammed home to GW rather uncomfortably by the Chapterhouse fiasco.

And it would hardly hamper their own world-building projects. All they would need to do to include generic models is print some stats for them.

Well, it does impact on them; that tooling and sculpting and machine-time (and warehousing, shipping, etc) is all effort that could be spent on something else that sells with much bigger margins, and which they retain a tight control on (i.e., which you can only get from them). In other words, it's an Opportunity Cost.

Now, all you need to do to include them in AOS is knock up a "war scroll", right? And you could even include some primitive tech weapons on the sprue for use as 40K "planetary natives" ...

Hmm, not really. They neither fit anything in terms of factions, nor provide enough to do anything with on their own. A random unit of "X" genrally hasn't made most people's games for a very long time either - that's actually one reason that GW formed the more rigid factions that they have (a discussion I'm sure we've had before). In other words, players aren't interested, and GW doesn't want to bother making a full faction out of them so that players are.

______________________________________

I like your own efforts with the plastics BTW, thanks for the links.

Still a shame to see so few FG Gnoll though, as I think the kits look very nice. They'd make good stand-ins for Beastmen types in KoW too.

[Hobgoblin]

Basically as nic-e says.

GW aren't really interested in your lunch money though - that's what their paints and hobby accessories are for.
They are much more interested in your Birthday and Christmas money, and in your parent's wallets (opened by your pester-power).

Ha! Brilliant! 

No, GW want exclusive control of what they make - and also of anything they "create" even if they never actually make any models for it. That's the point, rammed home to GW rather uncomfortably by the Chapterhouse fiasco.

Oh, sure - that is how they think. But does that attitude obscure opportunities, I wonder? I reckon that GW plastics are so far ahead of the competition that they could afford to rest on the quality.

And in answer to your some of your points below and some of nic's, I'd point out that GW have been making fairly generic fantasy stuff in the form of their LotR/Hobbit film tie-ins. If this site and the blogosphere are an indication (and they may not be representative, I accept), those models have been widely used with non-GW wargames. But the IP on which they are based is ageing (and, in the case of the Hobbit films, not very good to begin with; my kids rolled their eyes through the Five Armies one the other day, the younger having just finished the book.).

So, if they are to continue to cater for the generic fantasy market while they make their own fantasy stuff more of a specialist taste, there might be a place for non-Tolkien/Jackson generics.

Now, I'm not for a moment suggesting they will do any such thing - for all the reasons you outline. But I wonder what the player base of AOS is compared with KOW and the rest of the long tail? Was the decline in the popularity of WHFB due to less interest in fantasy battles generally or more competition for other games? I've never played KOW and probably never will, but I gather that the consensus is that it's a better ruleset that WHFB.

The basis for this whole idea is what GW said - or used to say - about being a miniatures company rather than a games company. I know they have been going big on board games recently, but if they're still broadly about the miniatures, I wonder why they're so obsessed with IP. To put it another way, I suspect that the runaway, decades-long success of 40K may not be replicable in other genres.

I like your own efforts with the plastics BTW, thanks for the links.

Cheers! I'm afraid the detail on the WF orcs is a bit soft for my rather primitive drybrush-and-wash style.

Still a shame to see so few FG Gnoll though, as I think the kits look very nice. They'd make good stand-ins for Beastmen types in KoW too.

Yes, they're great - and the arms are a fix for the WF orcs, which is a mercy. I've been using gnoll parts to make some Moorcockian and Boschian chaos creatures too.

[Too Bo Coo]

For myself, my concepts of 'fantasy' really came out of my experience with 1e AD&D. The fortunate thing there is that Otherworld minis entire line follows that aesthetic. 

[Too Bo Coo]

I have to agree that there is zero incentive for GW to do anything much different from what tey are doing now, and to in fact double down on that strategy. As MG stated, they got burned, from their pov, from the Chapterhouse case... even though let's be honest Chapterhouse was hardly a financial ripple.  My guess is that they did not want to see the flood doors open to a real competitor.  By the by, I had a bunch of the Chapterhouse Tru Scale, really nice stuff!