The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Cubs]

The Old World really makes me feel old

Spare a thought for those of us who thought 'The Old World' was just a return to the later crappy Warhammer creations that killed the franchise in the first place and that a huge opportunity was missed by not spooling right back to the Oldhammer aesthetic and genre. But in truth, fans do it better and GW are probably happier for them to do that, because it wouldn't make them any money.

[Ozreth]

Spare a thought for those of us who thought 'The Old World' was just a return to the later crappy Warhammer creations that killed the franchise in the first place and that a huge opportunity was missed by not spooling right back to the Oldhammer aesthetic and genre. But in truth, fans do it better and GW are probably happier for them to do that, because it wouldn't make them any money.

While I mostly agree, I'm becoming curious at which point many LAFers believe the split happened. 5th edition? 6th? As early as 4th?

[HerbertTarkel]

While I mostly agree, I'm becoming curious at which point many LAFers believe the split happened. 5th edition? 6th? As early as 4th?

I think “Oldhammer” ended in 5th. The armies, the miniatures, still had that old aesthetic. Then 6th the change in both the rules and all the made-over armies to more “serious” looking armies.

Kind of like the change between 40k 2nd edition, and then 3rd. Just a big change.

[Belligerentparrot]

I'm becoming curious at which point many LAFers believe the split happened. 5th edition? 6th? As early as 4th?

For me it is less about the rules and more about the minis. I'd say mid 92, early 93. That is when the new minis increasingly came in "here I am, standing still, holding my weapon at a 45 degree angle" poses, with none of the individual little details - talismans, bottles, other little knicknacks - that gave them any sense of individuality.

I never particularly liked the Oldhammer charter or anything like that, but have always liked pottering about with late 80s-1991 minis. So Cubs, yeah, your perspective was exactly where my "I feel old" comment came from.

[Hobgoblin]

While I mostly agree, I'm becoming curious at which point many LAFers believe the split happened. 5th edition? 6th? As early as 4th?

Surely 3rd edition was the last "proper" Warhammer Fantasy Battle? The first three editions share such glories as armies of Slann, proper hobgoblins (Toughness 4 and Frenzy!), half-orcs and troglodytes. Didn't all those things vanish from subsequent editions?

[Hobgoblin]

It's worth adding that (proper) hobgoblins, Slann and half-orcs were staples of the scenarios of the first three editions - from The Ziggurat of Doom to The Dolgan Raiders, from Kremlo the Slann to The Magnificent Sven and from Orc's Drift to Forenrond's Last Stand, respectively.

[Hobgoblin]

And one more thing: the first three editions of WFB are set in the same (old) world as the original Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and the Enemy Within campaign. It's a world with fierce, tough (T4! Frenzy!) hobgoblins on the Steppe, half-orcs lurking here and there and lizardmen bursting into orc and dwarf holds from deeper in the earth. Oh, and chaos goblins.

Now, WFRP doesn't include Slann - but I suspect that's only because they aren't part of the Old World setting and were to be introduced in Richard Halliwell's never-published Lustria supplement. In fact, there's an Paul Bonner illustration for this that shows the aftermath of a fight between Norsemen and Slann (image from the Awesome Lies blog):

[Tactalvanic]

I doubt that one can make this work with a big company that is on the stock market.

On the other hand what they are doing seems to work, at least on the money making side:
https://www.tradingpedia.com/2024/11/22/games-workshop-stock-rises/

I am referring to their past, and start what they did, from the late 70's into the 80's - not what they do or are now.

They started with passion, they are a  business first since and now,#.

 I agree, they are clearly good at what they do to. But its not the same, as with all things.

And 3rd edition. its the version I have referred back to since I got it in '87 and fits in with the rogue trader, and WFRP and matching books of the same vintage, I have later rules booklets from boxed sets and later hardback 40k, etc, but those are my GW rules to go to if that's the flavour of rules I am playing  - bad or not as the case may be

That's the old stuff for me.

[Ozreth]

Does WHFRP 2e fit in there as well? Or did the world change with that revision?

[Hobgoblin]

Does WHFRP 2e fit in there as well? Or did the world change with that revision?

I don't know, but I'd guess that it changed, in line with WHFB, given that it was the best part of two decades later. If it had no half-orcs, tough hobgoblins (i.e. equivalent to orcs on the toughness front) or lizardmen (in the Old World!), it wasn't using the same setting.

[Ozreth]

I don't know, but I'd guess that it changed, in line with WHFB, given that it was the best part of two decades later. If it had no half-orcs, tough hobgoblins (i.e. equivalent to orcs on the toughness front) or lizardmen (in the Old World!), it wasn't using the same setting.

I don’t know a lot about WHFRP, just checked and looks like you’re right. For some reason I thought it was released around 1994 but I may have been thinking of the 1e reprint.

[Citizen Sade]

If it had no half-orcs, tough hobgoblins (i.e. equivalent to orcs on the toughness front) or lizardmen (in the Old World!), it wasn't using the same setting.

When did Gnomes,non-chaos Norse & Zoats disappear? At the same time that Nippon & Pygmies got memory holed?

[HerbertTarkel]

When did Gnomes,non-chaos Norse & Zoats disappear? At the same time that Nippon & Pygmies got memory holed?

All around the same time.

Maybe there’s an “Oldhammer”, a “Midhammer”, “Latehammer”, and a “Shit-Sigmarhammer” period…

[Hobgoblin]

When did Gnomes,non-chaos Norse & Zoats disappear? At the same time that Nippon & Pygmies got memory holed?

Yes, I think so!

All those types are in third edition. Gnomes and non-chaos Norse were there from first edition to third; Zoats and Pygmies came in in second and survived to third. Did Nippon/Men of the East ever go away, or were they just not in scope in subsequent editions? I presumed there was always meant to be a Japan analogue out there.

[Hobgoblin]

Maybe there’s an “Oldhammer”, a “Midhammer”, “Latehammer”, and a “Shit-Sigmarhammer” period…

Yup. I think the distinction between "Oldhammer" and "Midhammmer" pertains to your comment here"

I think “Oldhammer” ended in 5th. The armies, the miniatures, still had that old aesthetic. Then 6th the change in both the rules and all the made-over armies to more “serious” looking armies.

That's Midhammer, I reckon. The Oldhammer armies were quite serious-looking. I mean, take the Perry night goblins, for example:



They may be misshapen, but they're not goofy (and the miniatures themselves are even less so). They're mean, well equipped and quite Tolkien-esque.

The same goes for the Perry orcs (the staple orcs of 1st and 2nd edition, and the basis for many of the slottabase orcs still in currency for 3rd edition):





And the same holds true for Aly Morrison's glorious half-orcs and hobgoblins:





So I'd say that the Oldhammer look was much more serious than most of what followed. The early designers seemed to ask, "What would an orc warrior carry into battle" and equip the figures as if they were historical ones.