The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Major_Gilbear]

@ Vermis & Scurv:

I like Mantic, and really believe that they could offer a serious alternative to what we have from GW (you know, in terms of offering a widespread game that also acts to attract new people to wargaming and modelling).

However, there does seem to have been a strong disinclination to try anything other than very tame copycat efforts. I find this really puzzling, and feel that it doesn't do Mantic much good (although, of course, I could be wrong). I feel that just producing more foot troops that are worse-realised versions of plastic models already put out by GW labels them as a poor-man's version of something better. And as you two say, there is a lot of wasted effort on reinventing things that don't need reinventing (or at least, not the extent of making model proportions totally stupid).

It seems to me that the current Mantic path is to make entry-style boardgames, and use these as testbeds for new sculpts, new designs, and to trial manufacturers (afterall, on big reason for the shift to "Restic" from hard styrene is because they moved away from Rendedra).

This is a good start, and I would much rather see Mantic spend effort on making all the alien factions for Warpath rather than just humans/orks/dwarves/elves in space. Same goes for KoW - if they are just going to reinvent elves/dwarves/orks/hoomins into worse versions of what you can buy better from elsewhere, then why bother? I even liked their new Ogres but felt let down by the stupid-looking tiny legs.

[Too Bo Coo]

the thing is making space orks, space elves etc is not a bad bread and butter line. Its just they are all over the place as you mentioned in terms of quality.

Just say for arguments sake they went a different direction with their aliens I think they would still be well served by still sticking with well worn tropes. You dont need to make them space orks but you will need a big brutish looking primitive race with mad max style dress sense. Call them Reavers if you like. Know what I mean though. They might look more like the alien mercs from 5th element or reavers from serenity but they fill the same niche as space orks in tropeland.

Christ only knows how many slightly varied takes of Giger's Alien have been made as minis. Nids. Koroloran and Kryomech to name a few.

The really different and new aliens that are popular are still tapping into familiar tropes. The Quar are a totally new concept for aliens (and I must say I personally think they are ace.) but they are tied to a WW1 style trope.

I think to go a new direction entirely is the sort of thing where it needs to be totally amazing in both look and idea. Thinking about it its pretty rare. Predator and Alien were new monsters in tropeland that worked.

Something like cloverfield or district 9 were not new ideas really. Cloverfield was a sci fi godzilla flick and district 9 was just another take on insectoid aliens. Thewy looked new but the trope behind both of them was over half a century old.

 

Agreed, it's quite a leap of faith to try and blaze new trails. There is afterall only one Geiger.  He forged new territory in his art and arguably not much originality has followed.

[Major_Gilbear]

@ Scurv:

Totally agree with your comments on original not often being very original. The problem is, I *would* rather have brutish-looking Orks than deformed comedy-looking Orks. Tropes don't have to be 100% new to deserve a new design/concept/look though.

My issue is that whilst, yes, dwarves with guns in space may be "bread-and-butter", it is lazy and fairly pointless - especially if you hash it up. Getting it right takes more effort and work than just having a new race of shark-men for example, or burning demons, or giant insect, or... whatever else really. This is because whilst a parallel to something similar can be drawn, it's also established that they are not exactly the same - giving opportunity for creativity within the trope.

Therefore, I would always prefer to see a brutish race that was a bit Orkish over a race of badly-done "not Orks". Otherwise, you end up with people making a direct comparison and saying about Mantic's efforts "no, that's wrong - Orks in space wouldn't be like that" which basically just leads to disappointment.

For example, Marauders in Deadzone were great in terms of fluff and gameplay, but the models... Only got partway there with the naff alligator snouts, gangly arms, whoppingly huge hands, and hunched-over look. They are waaay better than the Warpath Orks, but it feels like a refinement of something poor rather than a re-do into something good.

I do also find that Mantic only listens a bit, and often ends up making basic errors that lead to a poor model. Why show things off in a WIP stage of you are just going to ignore obvious (but good) feedback? For a good example of showing off a WIP and ignoring the feedback, check out the lady with the missile launcher here. She does look like the concept art (here), but the way she's holding the weapon is so awkward that it spoils an otherwise nice sculpt.

Still, all of this is unfair to level at Mantic alone. GW have almost never listened to anything fans have requested (occasional Dark Elf army books aside), and continue to ignore what a great many would like. Whilst that does lead to superior products sometimes, it often leads to an inward-looking downward spiral of stagnation (see: Apple for a "big" example).

[nic-e]

(see: Apple for a "big" example).

Careful, if you keep speaking like that you're going to bagged up and dragged away in the night by turtleneck clad goons, then wake up working at the genius bar in an apple store in Siberia.

[Vermis]

I like Mantic, and really believe that they could offer a serious alternative to what we have from GW (you know, in terms of offering a widespread game that also acts to attract new people to wargaming and modelling).

I like their ethos and I think KoW is a nifty ruleset. The problem is I'd do the opposite of their original intent: I'd use GW minis with Mantic rules, not Mantic minis with GW rules.

(afterall, on big reason for the shift to "Restic" from hard styrene is because they moved away from Rendedra).

Aah. I thought they were moving closer when these popped in in the webshop.

This is a good start, and I would much rather see Mantic spend effort on making all the alien factions for Warpath rather than just humans/orks/dwarves/elves in space. Same goes for KoW - if they are just going to reinvent elves/dwarves/orks/hoomins into worse versions of what you can buy better from elsewhere, then why bother? I even liked their new Ogres but felt let down by the stupid-looking tiny legs.

The problem is, I *would* rather have brutish-looking Orks than deformed comedy-looking Orks. Tropes don't have to be 100% new to deserve a new design/concept/look though.

My issue is that whilst, yes, dwarves with guns in space may be "bread-and-butter", it is lazy and fairly pointless...

For example, Marauders in Deadzone were great in terms of fluff and gameplay, but the models... Only got partway there with the naff alligator snouts, gangly arms, whoppingly huge hands, and hunched-over look. They are waaay better than the Warpath Orks, but it feels like a refinement of something poor rather than a re-do into something good.

I think we're on the page here. It might sound like a contradiction in terms, but while I sometimes have a hankering for comedy and mad stuff, I prefer my fantasy (imagery, at least) to be fairly serious and sober fantasy, most of the time. Re: the LotR dwarves vs. KoW and WHFB dwarfs I waffled about earlier. I wouldn't even consider dwarfs in space, and I'm glad squats got squatted (there I said it) because there's just too much 'comedy' baggage, and I don't know if there's any way they can be something other than "hey, they're fantasy dwarfs, you know like the Hobbit or Warhammer, with big ol' beards and things, but get this, now they got lazur guns too lulz!" I think elves and orcs made the transition more easily because of (or by playing up) their more 'alien' qualities.
But yeah, alligator snouts etc. are maybe not the qualities to play up! GW's own ork tropes, adding bucket jaws, horizontal necks, riciculously huge weapons (that's just the sluggas and choppas!) are a bit much too. And then there's aftermarket bits producers, puppet's war, kromlech etc. who to my eyes warp the look even further.
Now I do think that orks are a great, and maybe even necessary comedy element in 40K background, but that's the thing: in the background. In their fictional culture and actions, not in clumsy model design and proportions.

I also have a soft spot for ogres, but started chopping up the GW plastics to make them less comedy-obese-mongols, and the high hopes I had for Mantic's versions died for pretty much the reason you stated.

Like I say, I might be in the minority here, and missing the point, but I'm not a fan of the way the 'mundanity' seems to be increasingly stripped from fantasy/sci-fi aesthetics these days. In wargaming anyway. It's like there's a skew towards a comic-book/WoW look, that dribbles through to a greater or lesser degree even in bog-standard humans, particularly in some of the newer games like Malifaux, Zombicide, Helldorado, Warmahordes etc. Maybe I'm getting old, but I get more excited by some of the historical plastic kitbashes on this forum.* Like my motto about fantasy monsters, a veneer of reality makes it much more relatable and less of a... poser, in my eyes. It also lets the really fantastic stuff pop more.

*Though that brings up the question of whether the changes in style and design are necessary to differentiate newer fantasy from historicals, and make the latter less applicable as a proxy.

Therefore, I would always prefer to see a brutish race that was a bit Orkish over a race of badly-done "not Orks". Otherwise, you end up with people making a direct comparison and saying about Mantic's efforts "no, that's wrong - Orks in space wouldn't be like that" which basically just leads to disappointment.

Yup. Reminds me of some interior art in GW books - by Karl Kopinski, I think, but I can't find it online - with orks that were still recognisably orks, but reigned in, and proportioned and rendered more realistically. I think the B&W format helped too, cutting out the bright green skin. It made them look a lot more brutish and badass, IMO, because they were less OTT and cartoony.

the thing is making space orks, space elves etc is not a bad bread and butter line. Its just they are all over the place as you mentioned in terms of quality.

Uh-huh.

Agreed, it's quite a leap of faith to try and blaze new trails. There is afterall only one Geiger.  He forged new territory in his art and arguably not much originality has followed.

Uh-huh!

Why show things off in a WIP stage of you are just going to ignore obvious (but good) feedback? For a good example of showing off a WIP and ignoring the feedback, check out the lady with the missile launcher here. She does look like the concept art (here), but the way she's holding the weapon is so awkward that it spoils an otherwise nice sculpt.

I remember the first sneak peek at the seperate bits (sculpts or masters) for the KoW battle sisters and the alarms started screaming in my head. Even unassembled I could tell they were going to look utterly disproportionate and ugly, and said so.

And guess what?

They did.

Still, all of this is unfair to level at Mantic alone. GW have almost never listened to anything fans have requested (occasional Dark Elf army books aside), and continue to ignore what a great many would like. Whilst that does lead to superior products sometimes, it often leads to an inward-looking downward spiral of stagnation (see: Apple for a "big" example).

Heck, see GW itself.

In fact one line that I think has done really well as replacements for GW figs are their undead. Also interesting to note they are the figs that are pretty much lock stock bog standard looking undead figs with no fancy frills.

Apart from frowny eye sockets. But yes, that's a great example of the kind of thing I've been talking about: a bit of restraint and 'mundanity' in design paying dividends.

[Barbarian]

It's all down to how good the Artistic Director is and how much the executives are listening to him.

[nic-e]

It's all down to how good the Artistic Director is and how much the executives are listening to him.

So your saying John Blanche has been locked in a chest and buried beneath bugmans bar ?

[Diakon]

So your saying John Blanche has been locked in a chest and buried beneath bugmans bar ?

Just don't think the execs are giving him enough power over the end products.

[nic-e]

Just don't think the execs are giving him enough power over the end products.

I think it's that alot of his designs don't work on a big unit scale.If 40k was a smaller scaled game then his designs could be really well transferred to the tabletop as great little characters.

But agreed,i'd like to see his influence more in future releases.(or forgeworld could just do a nice range of display/boutique miniatures based on his sketches.)

[nic-e]

Ever so sorry for the double post but this is sort of a separate thing.


I mentioned a couple of pages back that i was thinking of a way to play the core 40k mechanics as a smaller game, and so i've written up some notes.

These are ROUGH! Rougher than a sandpaper ass, but if anyone has any thought or idea, please message me , even if you just want to call me a fool.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NZ0dn20JDkq8veiTPeZfOg0wjm0N-9blTZvwUd7rB4Y/edit?usp=sharing

(seriously, this is more just a concept up in the air, so if you see something and go "but that's wont work!" tell me, because all this is right now is just a piece of digital notepaper.)

[Momotaro]

You should try 5th ed, it's one of the less math-y systems i've played .

@Scurv

The D&D 5th Edition core mechanic is a work of minor genius.

You roll D20 + stat bonus (usually in the range -4 to +4) + level-based proficiency bonus (+2 to +6, only if the situation warrants it) against a target number or another player's roll.

Proficiency can be in a skill or a weapon or a set of tools.

No situational modifiers beyond that:

If you have an an Advantage, like shooting at close range, you roll 2D20 and take the highest+stat+proficiency.  Doesn't matter how many advantages you have, you only roll 2D20.

If you have a Disadvantage, like shooting in low light, you roll 2D20 and take the lowest+stat+proficiency.  Like Advantage, you either have it or not.

If you have an Advantage AND a Disadvantage, you roll 1D20+stat+proficiency.  That's regardless of number - one Advantage cancels out 3 Disadvantages.

A very clean mechanic and, after 35 years of gaming, nice to come across a new way of doing things.

[Momotaro]

Your character has six stat bonuses, one proficiency bonus and a list of things they're proficient in 

[Momotaro]

Well there's a bit more to it than that - spells, special class abilities and so on.  But in general the AMOUNT of rules is pleasantly low.

You know that the basic game is a free download on the Wizards site?

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/basicrules

There's a DM Guide with treasure, magic items and monsters, and a Player's Guide with four classes (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric and Wizard) and four races (human, various elves, dwarfs and halflings).  It's surprisingly complete - there are a lot of spells in there too.  The free documents will be updates as the new rulebooks are published.

The Hoard of the Dragon Queen has a free online supplement with more monsters:

http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/hoard-dragon-queen

The actual paid-for starter set is a rules booklet, a set of pre-generated character sheets and an adventure/mini-campaign booklet.  You don't need to buy it to play the game.

The hardback Player's Guide has more classes, more races and a full spell list.  Feats are optional, and vastly cut down from the 3e madness.

[Dr Mathias]

So... GW thread and everyone goes out to buy D&D. 

Seriously though I've been kicking around picking up the new edition of D&D, this thread pretty much tipped me in.

[Too Bo Coo]

So... GW thread and everyone goes out to buy D&D. 

Seriously though I've been kicking around picking up the new edition of D&D, this thread pretty much tipped me in.

Part of their start was fueled by D&D related swag, so it's only fitting, no?