Heroquest returns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ced1106]

Hey, we all made our bed...and we shall be sleeping in it.  I've been fortunate on most of my Kickstarters.  It's a risk I agreed to when I paid in. 

Gotcha. Well, you have Lazanos on your side, which is more than KickStarter ever does!

Good luck on July 18th!

[Elbows]

I will say, my mind would be truly blown if we actually get a fully promised product...even in two years time.  I'm not holding my breath. 

[Yuber Okami]

Yeah, that's what you should do. In fact, because GW cannot defend its Warhammer IP against companies making money off of them, they've canned their entire Warhammer Olde World line.

Following your example about eldars, have you noticed that eldar is the way elves called themselves in Lotr? And who invented the eight pointed Star of Chaos? Do you know that, when planning an Elric film, they said the symbol of chaos could not be used because it was GW's IP although no one discussed that it was Moorcock's invention?

And now tell me: how is it possible that a megacorp like GW was selling worse sculpted, plastic (not lead) miniatures at a higher prize than GZ or other similar, smaller companies? They have economy of scale on their side (how many times is GW bigger than GZ?), so that should never have happened. You can say that production costs in Spain are smaller, but how much? It's not China-like to be precise. And there are companies from all over the World producing fantasy miniatures...

[ced1106]

Following your example about eldars, have you noticed that eldar is the way elves called themselves in Lotr? And who invented the eight pointed Star of Chaos? Do you know that, when planning an Elric film, they said the symbol of chaos could not be used because it was GW's IP although no one discussed that it was Moorcock's invention?

You have to protect your IP. If you take no action against someone who may be violating it, they may even claim it as their own, as GW evidently is doing.

And now tell me: how is it possible that a megacorp like GW was selling worse sculpted, plastic (not lead) miniatures at a higher prize than GZ or other similar, smaller companies? They have economy of scale on their side (how many times is GW bigger than GZ?), so that should never have happened. You can say that production costs in Spain are smaller, but how much? It's not China-like to be precise. And there are companies from all over the World producing fantasy miniatures...

How is this relevant to IP protection? And does GZ really need to use another entity's IP (HeroQuest) to sell their miniatures?

We're close to a second page of a tangent, here. I was stating my internet research on GZ prior to its HQ25 project, of which "grey IP" was a *minor* point.

[beefcake]

70%? Ridiculous. It certainly doesn't count for 70% of the boardgame industry, where creators have their own ideas. I'm not talking *your* definition of "own". I'm talking IP here. You can make a game with "elves" because it's an idea and laws don't protect ideas. You cannot make a game with Eldar because it's someone else's IP. The difficult part of IP enforcement is distinguishing ideas vs. IP. But GZ, as I understand it, made not just similar models, but used similar names for their models. I'm sure GW's lawyers told GW that GW's implementation of generic fantasy was *not* well-protected by IP laws, so GW did the only prudent thing and destroyed their universe utterly, replacing it with the Age of Sigmar universe, whose names had stronger IP protection. Yeah, I'm sure everyone who bought GW-compatible miniatures was happy about that.

EDIT: Moreover if, say, Heresy or Chapterhouse ran a crowdfunding project of their own IP, would you back it? Then how about if they were to run a crowdfunding project that was connected to a company whose IP they did not have written permission but said they had permission to run? Why? What is the difference between the two situations?

More from Chris:

Games workshop isn't really in the boardgames industry although they make and made some boardgames. They are in the miniatures industry, tabletop gaming. Although you could argue that has changed over the years. Yes this is about a board game but it uses their fantast world created for a tabletop game. Elder is not a term unique to GW either.

I have backed a heresy is using their own IP and have been very happy with it. I'd have to say they only have the one thing that really looks GW, and I would back them again in a heartbeat.
Not really sure the point you are trying to make  in that last paragraph.

Lol, just realised i missed reading his page, so I'm a bit late to the game. Oops

[ced1106]

Games workshop isn't really in the boardgames industry although they make and made some boardgames. They are in the miniatures industry, tabletop gaming. Although you could argue that has changed over the years. Yes this is about a board game but it uses their fantast world created for a tabletop game. Elder is not a term unique to GW either.

I have backed a heresy is using their own IP and have been very happy with it. I'd have to say they only have the one thing that really looks GW, and I would back them again in a heartbeat. Not really sure the point you are trying to make  in that last paragraph.

I didn't mean to refer only to GW when I meant boardgames. What I meant to say was that my background was with boardgames (eg. rolling dice and pushing plastic and cubes on boards) more than miniature skirmish games, and boardgamers (ie. BoardGameGeek) are more concerned with IP than (some) miniature skirmish gamers. While Eldar (not Elder, of course) is a term not unique to GW, IP law might protect GW's expression of an Eldar miniature.

As for my last paragraph, it's there to probe how aware you are about IP litigation. We're talking about HeroQuest 25th, so, IMO, it doesn't matter whose "idea" something is. What matters is how much risk a project has, and it doesn't look like you understand the potential impact of legal action on a crowdfunded project. Moon Design's complaint to KickStarter alone pushed the HQ25 project off the worlds' largest crowdfunding's site.

The Heresy crowdfunding project using Heresy's IP has less risk than one that were to use IP that looks like GW, because the latter is more subject to GW legal action than the former is. Since we're talking HeroQuest 25th edition, for GameZone, had GameZone used their own IP (eg. a line of generic fantasy miniatures), they would not be at risk of legal action (in the United States) from Moon Design, which owns the HeroQuest trademark ("“Heroquest” is the registered US trademark of Moon Design and is the name of our “Heroquest” roleplaying game and assorted products."). Of course, whether or not GZ can sell HQ25 in the USA is another matter, but if MD decides to litigate against GZ, the cost of litigation alone may (or may not) impact the delivery of HQ25 to US backers, regardless of court rulings. As a US backer, I would like to minimize my risk in a crowdfunded project, and exposing a project to potential litigation does *not* do this.

Of course, if you're outside of the USA, enjoy your copy of HQ25!

[beefcake]

I was aware of the IP issues. Which is why GZ didn't use Fimir in their version of the game as that (although taken from Fimm or fomorians) is definitely GW IP. As you stated the trademark for Heroquest is owned by moon designs in USA which is why GZ could use it in Spain as the trademark didn't extend to there.

Saying that I still don't understand the point of the last paragraph. The difference was fairly obvious. Maybe I'm interpreting it a different way to your intent?

Also the Heresy Crowdfunding wasn't anything to do with GW IP. Just to make that clear, although you could use things in a GW setting much as you could any miniature from any manufacturer.


Elder was a bad autocorrect, I meant to write Eldar. you'd be pretty hard pressed to get any copyright on that

Of course, if you're outside of the USA, enjoy your copy of HQ25!

If it ever gets out of Spain but thanks

[ced1106]

I was aware of the IP issues. Which is why GZ didn't use Fimir in their version of the game as that (although taken from Fimm or fomorians) is definitely GW IP. As you stated the trademark for Heroquest is owned by moon designs in USA which is why GZ could use it in Spain as the trademark didn't extend to there.

Saying that I still don't understand the point of the last paragraph. The difference was fairly obvious. Maybe I'm interpreting it a different way to your intent?

Also the Heresy Crowdfunding wasn't anything to do with GW IP. Just to make that clear, although you could use things in a GW setting much as you could any miniature from any manufacturer.

fwiw, I think not using Fimir lowers the chance of an IP dispute, but doesn't negate it, nor does ownership of a trademark. There's also "trade dress" which may (or may not!) protect a property. Frex, something like a chain opening some restaurants in Spain had a trade dress dispute because a British restaurant chain claimed the interior design of the restaurants looked like those of the British chain, who said they intended (but didn't have) restaurants in Spain. IIRC, The dispute had to be appealed because the lower court upheld the Spanish claim. Crazy.

The stuff in the last paragraph ("EDIT:") was a hypothetical case of two projects which differed based on IP, and to see if you understood that they differed on their levels of risk because the former project (Heresy owns its IP) was not subject to litigation, but the latter project (Heresy is using another company's IP without permission) was, so had a higher level of risk. KS is not a store, and potential backers need to know what can make a project risky. Potential litigation increases risk.

As for the autocorrect (: we have lawsuits in the USA over a word like Apple! It's even crazier here. (:

[beefcake]

, yep, Apple seems so generic really when you think about it, going to buy an apple vs going to buy an Apple. I'm not really in disagreement with what you are saying it's just an interesting topic.

[beefcake]

Well there's pics of Chaos Warriors up now along with some of the terrain pieces.

[beefcake]

Latest news from Lanzanos

Hello Heroquest´s support:
 

The results of the survey that I did last week have been the following of the 4 options I explain as has been:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9zhp5xocus4jajl/Captura%20de%20pantalla%202016-07-12%2013.52.12.png?dl=0

49.4% - Lanzanos denounce alone.
18.5% - Wait for the complaint that there are today.
11.8% - Joint Civilian Complaint Lanzanos and the patrons.
20.3% - Keep waiting.

Of a total of 994 answers (totals were 1,260 responses to the survey and filtered 266 votes)
Since last week, the Lanzanos´s lawyer is preparing the complaint. Thanks to you we have almost 20 Gb of videos, documents and articles of Dionisio. The documents contradict each other and give dates completely wrong and outdated.

Also he calls all patrons the shipping costs of the rewards and he knew that he didn´t have the rewards ready. The complaint was sent to the court but when I knew anything I will say you.

I also ask the patrons who have gone to the workshop, that tell us their impressions to share with all patrons through these newsletters.

On these bulletins if you're patrons of Lánzanos or you have pre purchased the game through its website and these emails didn´t arrive to you, please email me but keep in mind that many ISP cut mailings because this email is sent to 5000 recipients, maybe some email goes to SPAM or are cut, so I invite you to do public forums or where they believe appropriate.

Also, I want explain how the complaint is currently set by a patron
http://www.darkstone.es/index.php?topic=179.msg145994#msg145994

Thank you for your patience and I hope I write you better news next time , sorry.
 
I´m sorry for my english, Best regards.

[Elbows]

Yep...

[Braxandur]

It a trainwreck....  but I still would like to receive it 

[Elbows]

I'd rather receive something, as I'm quite sure I will not be receiving a full refund.  I'm hoping any lawsuit results in more of a "get your foot out of your ass and get the production going" vs. "refund your investors with...whatever money you have left" etc.

[beefcake]

Yeah me too. Terribly run but hopefully they can get it sorted...