28mm Punjab Infantry NWF 1890s?

[Plynkes]

One thing I am unsure of is the use of smokeless powder.
I thought everyone was still using cartridges/charges that produced smoke...is that correct for small arms?

Depends what rifles the troops had. Martini-Henries, Martini-Metfords and Lee-Metfords used black powder. Lee-Enfields and Martini-Enfields used smokeless powder.

I'm not altogether up to speed on who had what during the campaign you are interested in. All of those rifles were in service at the time, I think (maybe not the Martini-Henry), the single-shot ones being used by Indian troops and the magazine rifles by the British.

[smirnoff]

Thanks
Way I will do it is the Gordons and the Line troops get Lee-Metfords
As will a Pashtun sniper
Everyone else gets Martini-Henrys bar the Jezail armed Pashtuns

[Plynkes]

I'm not sure whether or not they were still using Martini-Henries at that time. I've got a feeling everything had gone over to .303. But as a Martini-Metford looks identical to a Martini-Henry it isn't something we need to worry over. 

[smirnoff]

Barthorpe in 'The Frontier Ablaze' has Brit Line Batts using Lee-Metford Mk1s in this campaign with Indian troops armed with Martini-Henrys.
Dunno if this is gospel...

[guitarheroandy]

My understanding is that when the British regiments transferred to the Lee Metford in the 1890s (replacing the Martini Henry), the Indian regiments were given the Martini Henry to replace their old Snider rifles. This was because of a hangover from the post-Mutiny organisation that always ensured the British regiments had the superior weaponry. I don't know at what point this altered, or at what point the Lee Metford was replaced. Is this gospel truth? Dunno...it's what pretty much all the books seem to say.

All the pics in Barthorp's books and pretty much all the others I have seen have the Indian regiments armed with Martini Henry in the great Pathan revolt of 1897.

It does present interesting rules questions, as the Lee metford had superior range (and rate of fire being a magazine rifle, although magazine fire was reserved for desperate situations) to the Martini Henry, which was in turn slightly superior to the Snider (although both the latter were breech loading single shot rifles.) All apparently outranged the Pathan weaponry (although some wargame rules give the Pathan muzzle-loading jezail a longer range than a rifle, which always struck me as odd, athough it clearly should outrange the musket in 1st Afghan war scenarios, etc.)

Barthorp makes the point that, by 1897, many tribesmen had access to Enfields, Sniders and some Martini Henry rifles which brought them worryingly close to the Indian troops in terms of range, rate of fire, etc, which, given the tribesmen's natural marksmanship, can't have been good for the Anglo-Indians!

[smirnoff]

It does present interesting rules questions, as the Lee metford had superior range (and rate of fire being a magazine rifle, although magazine fire was reserved for desperate situations) to the Martini Henry, which was in turn slightly superior to the Snider (although both the latter were breech loading single shot rifles.) All apparently outranged the Pathan weaponry (although some wargame rules give the Pathan muzzle-loading jezail a longer range than a rifle, which always struck me as odd, athough it clearly should outrange the musket in 1st Afghan war scenarios, etc.)

It is odd that some rules make the Jezail better range wise than the rifles (even if the Jezail can only fire every other turn).
I will use T&T for this period and may well just shorten the Jezail range given in the Colonial suppliment

[Plynkes]

The Martini-Metford came out in the late 1880s, and the Martini-Enfield in the mid 1890s. Somebody was issued with them, and it wasn't British regulars.

I'm just wondering whether authors are using "Martini-Henry" in a generic sense, when they actually mean one of the later model Martinis (or they don't know the difference). They are after all, until inspected closely, virtually identical.

I don't know, I'm just wondering. It's also equally plausible that it took a long time for the full transition to 303 to happen.

[guitarheroandy]

The Martini-Metford came out in the late 1880s, and the Martini-Enfield in the mid 1890s. Somebody was issued with them, and it wasn't British regulars.

I'm just wondering whether authors are using "Martini-Henry" in a generic sense, when they actually mean one of the later model Martinis (or they don't know the difference). They are after all, until inspected closely, virtually identical.

I don't know, I'm just wondering. It's also equally plausible that it took a long time for the full transition to 303 to happen.

Good point! I didn't even know about the later Martini variants. I presume they were all single shot breechloaders like the original Martini Henry?

[Plynkes]

Yeah, still single shot, with the same lever action. Originally they were Martini-Henry rifles given new barrels. Later they were manufactured new. The Martini-Metford fired the black powder 303 Lee-Metford round, and the Martini-Enfield fired the smokeless powder 303 Lee-Enfield round.

[Hobbit]

I did some research on this a couple of years back that included a catalogue from the patern room at Enfield. I do recall that some models of the Mrtini-Henry were specific to the Indian Army, I don't recall reading that the Martini-Enfield was issued to them. Off the top of my head the only reference that I can think of to the Martini-Enfield being used in anger is by some of the Imperial Service Troops in 1914ish in East Africa. Indian regiments serving in China in 1900 had been issued with Lee-Metfords - perhaps it was thought that they were less likely to mutiny in the middle of China.

Reading the original British "Infantry Training" manuals from 1888 and 1896 (and I do mean original, complete with the owners' penciled in notes) the only difference in the tactical employment of the Martini-Henry and the Lee-Metford appeared to be that the "effective" range was increased from 400 yards to 500 yards. Sniders were still in use by some 2nd line troops by this point but according to one account of the action at Chitral they were so worn out that they were essentially smoothbores and were referred to as "gas-pipe guns" - it is anyone's guess as to what the "effective" range for these would have been, but the Kashmir Rifles using them were very roughly handled and apparently shot appalingly badly during the recce from Chitral Fort.

[smirnoff]

Excellent info Hobbit, many thanks
I expect the training manuals were a joy to behold.....
Just reading 'Passing It On'
Cracking book

[smirnoff]

Few pics from my new stash of NWF lead
Some were not terrain based when I did the images

Brigadier Linn of the Gordon’s


Never tried Tartan before….

Lord Gordon Grey


Screw Gun (not sure I got the barrel colour right…)


Basic conversion of a TAG mule into a Maxim Mule

[italwars]

excellent posting and picts....it push me to revamp my (unfinised) NWF troops that are sleeping in the cellar
one question about those nice TAG mules. (they also produce some stubborn mules)..are they really compatible in size with OG, Foundry, Empress, Perry  25/28 mm minis..or are those kind of big toys (Redoubt..ecc) that make them untouchable by guys like me that own classic size collection?..also their horses seem nice ..maybe to use for Asiatic tribesmen riders.
regards

[smirnoff]

Thanks
The mules work fine with Foundry (even though the original Foundry British and Scots troops are quite small), Empress and Pontoonier.
The TAG mules are nice sculpts

[guitarheroandy]

Those are some seriously nice pics! I am in the middle of a bunch of Foundry Sikhs and Gurkhas at the moment, as I'm back onto my stalled NW Frontier project as I'm finding khaki-clad Brits and largely white-clad Pathans much easier to paint than the mountain of Fantasy stuff I'm winding my way through!! I'll post some pics as soon as I get the current two units done...

I have a right old mix of stuff...Foundry Brit horse artillery, Sikhs, Gurkhas and Guides, Empress and Pontoonier Brits, Perry Highlanders and Bengal Lancers, Castaway Arts Sikhs and Bengal Lancers and a mass of Old Glory and castaway Arts Pathans. I also have a load of Foundry Afghan regulars in the loft, although they are well down the painting queue, as I want to have enough units for a decent size T&T game with Anglo-Indians vs Pathans before I put Afghan regulars into the mix.