(KICKSTARTER) Mantic Mars Attacks! Funded in 13 minutes!

[Quirkworthy]

"Doubled the money" Scurv?

That sounds a bit over-egged, but I take your point. It's a rare business that makes no mistakes though. You've also forgotten that MA is a licensed product and that the core of that license is set in contemporary America, not the 1960s.

I had a discussion with the Mantic guys today about these retro troopers and they've got to check with Topps to see what period they can/would prefer doing.

Arlequìn - I did warn them about button counting too

[Quirkworthy]

Absolutely agree that marketing serves a purpose, and that games companies do very little of it (and might do better if they did more). The issue, as ever, is resources to do the research in the first place which have to be prised away from so,etching else like paying sculptors or whatever.

And I'm still not entirely convinced that the retro is as big as you think. One thing on the net is the unbalancing nature of the vocal minority. How much is real mass opinion (and thereby valuable market research) and how much is a shouty few? Hard to know.

Having done a little bit of polling and questionnaires and analysis of same I can tell you that what people say they want isn't always what they actually buy when you turn up with the products. Seen that more than once in the gaming world. Campaign packs are a classic. Often asked for, seldom bought.

[Quirkworthy]

I think you have a fair point Scurv, I just don't think it's going to get taken up much. Mainly that's cost. Even if it (theoretically) repays itself back manyfold, you still have to have the cash up front to invest and be able to find more time and cash to change and react to the results. Few game companies are set up for that.

At least, that's my opinion

[Arlequín]

I can only comment as a consumer on this, but I'm not going to let that stop me.

I think it's fair comment that maybe 9:10 people will buy whatever is pushed at them, whether it's by a company*, or in fact the vocal minority in some cases (for example, somewhere like Dakka Dakka had an appreciable effect on backing). Also see the effects where that same vocal minority has a downer on a product for a certain reason, whether real or imagined.

*Obviously brand awareness has its effects too. 'Known' game companies tend to have an easier time than unknown ones.

We are in the process of moving on from the time when a company invented a game and setting without any customer feedback during the design process. The mechanisms are there now and whether they want it or not, companies get feedback on what they 'show and tell' and not all of it is purely the blind adoration of fan boys (or indeed fan girls, which in itself now alters the application of in-game features). Indeed GW goes to great pains to try to blinker its customers against even the existence of alternative product... a bit like King Canute ordering the tide to turn though.

I have wondered how 40K would have looked, had its formative years been spent in a world of instant internet approval or disapproval, rather than GW just showing up with a finished product on a take it or leave it basis. I think it's probably a safe bet at least, that Space Marines™ wouldn't have flared leg armour.

While I wouldn't deny Mantic had a firm hold on the development of what the game would be, it was also certainly responsive to 'community opinion'. That this 'community opinion' consisted of a vocal minority also became very clear... the bulk of backers were asking about how the credit system worked, or were 'nickel and dimeing' the various deals to get the optimum value and not offering their views or signifying what they wanted 'their' game to be.

On matters of 'what' should be in the game, outside of Mantic's vision for the game, 'community input' was a case of a small percentage of backers arguing the toss between themselves, with Mantic then judging like Solomon after hearing the various arguments presented. I'm not being critical of the process btw, as short of continuously polling every backer, on every piece of input required (which would probably have resulted in about 95% 'Don't Know' or 'tell me what I want' responses), I don't see any other way it could have been done... but it was hardly democracy at work (I accept the irony that I was one of the vocal minority in a couple of cases btw).  

As for the 'Retro' question, I don't think we will ever know how popular MA would have been if it was pitched on the original cards. In UK and Europe, 'Mars Attacks' relates to the movie... the cards and comics being virtually unknown. We do have the tradition of similar types of 'Alien' from 50's sci-fi movies... but again specifically 'Mars Attacks' as a concept, not so much.

The popularity of the KS in Europe stems entirely from the internet promotion by Mantic and TOPPS, and I suspect it would have been just as popular in whichever form it took. It's in the US where the real buzz and funding is likely to have come from though and with the exception of those who remembered the old cards and retro-geeks, setting it in the modern era was almost certainly the right call commercially.  

Having followed the KS from the start, I did note a change in the 'public' attitudes of Mantic and TOPPS towards retro. Firstly it was 'no way' and "it's all going to be based on the new cards and comics". When '50th Anniversary commemorative' was mentioned... the attitude softened slightly, until it was clear via the lack of comments that there was little support from the 'community'. Ronnie mentioned the possibility of them on TGN and a couple of other backers mentioned them in the comments... but no massive outpouring of support.

That's pretty much how it was until the last couple of hours of the KS, when it was announced that a squad of retro soldiers were going to be added as a stretch goal, then all of a sudden a lot of people wanted them and there were only a couple of people against the idea. Previously whenever it was mentioned, only a couple of comments would be registered for and against. I took this as 'No opinion'.

Make of that what you will, for me it was a case of instant demand based on Mantic offering product, rather than a genuine desire for retro-soldiers from the masses. Had they offered a scabby canine companion for one of the heroes, it probably would have generated the same 'want'. This begs the question that, if Mantic had offered a 'Classic MA' game instead of a modern themed one, would it be 'Mantic' (i.e. 'Brand') which sold the game, or 'Retro' (i.e. 'Theme') and my money is on it being the brand.  

If the above seems somewhat harsh in places, imagine I put a lot of smilies and winks in there, I just didn't want to dilute what I was trying to say...  

[Arlequín]

Oops... got carried away there and forgot this...

Arlequìn - I did warn them about button counting too

I hope you didn't use me as a specific example... I don't mind making a name for myself, but I am somewhat concerned that the name used around Mantic might not be too complimentary... I erm... was a touch 'assertive' at times. 

[Quirkworthy]

I'm sorry if i gave the impression it was entirely down to Topps. I can't say that for sure. Perhaps it was, perhaps it was a misunderstanding, perhaps it was one of those things that gets done without anyone really knowing why - it just gets a momentum all its own for no single good reason and then everyone accepts it because that's how it is. I'm sure we've all seen that happen.

As I said, I'm not entirely convinced that there was a legion of people who would have remortgaged their house if it had been retro. WOuld it have made more if it had been retro from the start? Maybe it would have.  In either case, it's done now and both are available for those that want to choose.

[Dr. The Viking]

Marsian Ambassador: Ack! Ack! Ack!

[Quirkworthy]

the other thing is I want you to know I dont think mantic does not have a clue what its doing. In fact I think more often than not you guys kick goals and when you miss you take it on board and fix it.

Your space orx being an excellent example. The sculpts from the first sets and the DZ ones are galaxies apart and for the better too. Wish you had bought them out before I did crap tons of conversions on the original ones to make a blood axe army though.   

The reason you chaps get more scrutiny than the others is because I buy your products and actually use them instead of just storing them in the shed. Considering the amount of gaming crud I buy that aint faint praise either. You are up against a lot of competition to get a look in on the gaming table.

I'll pass on your comments on marketing.

You do seem to be criticising the idea of learning from mistakes. If the Orx weren't as good as they could have ben and were then reworked and improved for later products isn't that better than sticking to the poorer ones come what may? I thought listening and learning from mistakes were good things.

And the fact that the models get table time is indeed an accolade 

[Arlequín]

yes its over now. I think it would be fair to say though that in order to have a retro game I will have to buy after market trucks and if pedantic 50's civs as well. Both of which can be done no worries.

What would be so wrong with that any way? It's what I plan on doing, safe in the knowledge that I will have more or less what I wanted and something quite different from the 'Mass Market' Game itself.


The important thing to me now is ensuring that the 'retro troops' at least look something like soldiers from c.1962 and not just yet another set of generic WW2 American soldiers.


However the point remains that, if sales of retro soldiers are significant, are Mantic likely to ignore that and not produce additional packs to support retro players? I think it will be the case that if retro is wanted, folk will have to put their money where their mouths are.

[Quirkworthy]

What would be so wrong with that any way? It's what I plan on doing, safe in the knowledge that I will have more or less what I wanted and something quite different from the 'Mass Market' Game itself.


The important thing to me now is ensuring that the 'retro troops' at least look something like soldiers from c.1962 and not just yet another set of generic WW2 American soldiers.


However the point remains that, if sales of retro soldiers are significant, are Mantic likely to ignore that and not produce additional packs to support retro players? I think it will be the case that if retro is wanted, folk will have to put their money where their mouths are.

Already mentioned looking like a specific time and place. And yes, if people buy retro by the bucketload I'd be surprised if Mantic didn't respond by making more.

[Arlequín]

Already mentioned looking like a specific time and place. And yes, if people buy retro by the bucketload I'd be surprised if Mantic didn't respond by making more.

I shall name one of my Mantic Army Men in your honour. 

It's the wait which will be hardest... and maybe I should be more optimistic, but I have visions of Mantic offering up their take on what a retro soldier should look like and me going "NOOO!", with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
   

[Quirkworthy]

I had a long conversation with them yesterday about making sure that the retro guys were a specific time and place with the correct number of buttons on their jackets and so on. They did point out that the guys in the cards aren't anything like that accurate, which is true. However, I don't expect that will cut any ice with you guys   

I've not seen any renders yet. I'm sure they'll post 'em up once they're ready.

[Arlequín]

Actually the soldiers on the cards were quite accurate... except in a couple of minor details. Admittedly we'd pick up on those though.


For me, I'd be happy with the 'effect' rather than a 100% accurate representation. The primary difference between troops of the era and WW2 is that they wore combat boots rather than 'spats'. Not a big difference you might imagine, but it's the look in every sci-fi film of the time and indeed every war film (they simply borrowed an army or marine unit for filming, who turned up as then currently equipped, weapons and all). That look was so embedded, that even Airfix's US Marines, first produced in 1963, were based on it, rather than the actual WW2 uniform (not that you could tell, they were that ugly).

The cards feature a mix of both 'WW2-armed' and what was then the 'new' equipment, which accurately reflects what the US military of the time was using. Truth told, despite the M14 being introduced in 1958, by 1962 (if you include the National Guard), over 75% of the US Military was still using the same weapons their fathers had carried in WW2 (except some mo' badder bazookas etc).



This is a 1960 publicity photo (for Time Life iirc) of USMC showing off their new rifles and machine guns. The keen-eyed will notice that if this wasn't a 'publicity' photo, then the Marines would have no way of carrying ammo for their rifles, as they have the pouches for Garand clips and not the bigger pouches for M14 magazines. Quite simply they were loaned the weapons for the photo, but at the time they were still issued Garands.

You will actually see this represented on the cards too, all the soldiers look pretty much the same to a point, but their weapons are somewhat random... so the argument that the cards weren't so picky (or indeed the USMC it seems) is valid.

The difference is that nowadays, we are generally far more 'discerning' (yeah, we count buttons) than the cards' 1962 audience and at least physically (if not mentally) somewhat older than the kids they were pitched at.
 
  

[Rob_Jedi]

I pledged way too much money on the kickstarter so I'm hoping for the best and look forward to seeing the retro troopers. Browsing for some appropriate vehicles I see Tamiya makes these likely kits in 1/48

http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/32548cargo_truck/
which would sub in for the oversized civilian trucks

http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/26531light_vehicle/index.htm
cause you need Jeeps

http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/26528staffcar/index.htm
and this because it's cool

http://www.revell.com/model-kits/snaptite/85-1756.html
for a very cheap Patton tank. Kinda odd they never added any tanks in the kickstarter for the human side...

[CptJake]

They didn't really go for accuracy on the modern, I suspect they won't on the retro as well.   They'll be close enough to give the retro feel, but that is it.   The moderns are a great example of Mantic just not wanting or caring to do the research required to get it 'right' vice 'give the feel'.  


Additionally the 'if the sell well they may make more' won't happen.   A limited 10 man squad with no support weapons/vehicles/etc won't generate enough interest for historical gamers to buy shed loads.   I suspect they will sell decently to those who want to retrofit their MA game, and maybe some folks who want to do similar with their alien invasion games, but realistically, that is a small subset of wargamers.