Please help with German bayonet knots

[Plynkes]

Currently painting some Great War Miniatures early war Germans. Unlike their Renegade counterparts that I've already painted, these fellows have cute little bayonet knots sculpted on them. I have no idea how to paint them. According to Osprey they should be in the "State's Colour", but I can't find anywhere what the colour for each state was. Are the colours the same as for officers' shoulder boards? (it does list those by state.)

The Mollo book says the knot was colour-coded to describe which battalion and company the soldier belonged to, his PIN number and favourite Spice Girl (or something like that). Are both books right, i.e. a state/battalion/company system, or has somebody got it wrong?

Can any of our German friends explain this system to a simple soul like myself? Specifically I'm painting figures that will pretend to be from a Württemberg  regiment in their first fight. Annoyingly I have tons of examples of pretty-coloured bayonet knots in my books that I could just copy, but not one of them is hanging from a Württemberger, so I need to know how the system works.

My Osprey book led me so far and then just dumped me on the side of the road. And then Messrs Mollo and Turner just sped past while laughing and throwing empty beer cans at me when I tried to flag them down. Help! Just tell me what colours to paint the damn things, please!

[PeteMurray]

There's no answer to this. Paint it light blue and pretend they're Bavarians. The answer to everything related to Bavarian uniforms is "light blue."

Unless it's "Raupenhelm". But between "Raupenhelm" and "light blue" you cover everything related to Bavarian uniforms.

I hope this helped.

Edit: I forgot to append a number of these throughout the preceding post.

[Poliorketes]

So you're a buttoncounter?
Found this on the Web: http://www.altearmee.de. There is much more about german uniforms than in any Osprey.

The bajonett knot is described on this page. http://www.altearmee.de/seitenwaffen.htm
It's in german, but the picture tells for itself and has the translation! So no state colour, only company colours. The state colours have been used only for NCOs, who didn't make use of the company colour code but had their states colours mixed in the knots white.

Now all you need to know is Wurtembergs colours. I guess these would have been black and red http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Württemberg.

[Phil Robinson]

Now all you need to know is Wurtembergs colours. I guess these would have been black and red http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Württemberg.

The state cockade was red and black.

[Poliorketes]

@Pete - don't call Wurttembergers Bavarians. You might as well call Welsh Scots. Wurttembergers are Swabians. A third of modern Bavaria consists of historical Swabia, but that makes no difference. Strathclyde is scottish nowadays, too, but that doesn't make you call a Welsh a Scot.

To make things more complicated - the people of Baden are Swabians, too, but don't ever call them so. Or only at your own risk. Same goes for Swiss. On the other hand the Austrians are Bavarians, but again, don't remind them of this. A yes, the german Saxons aren't really Saxons but Thuringians, while the people of Sachsen-Anhalt and Lower Saxony are true Saxons, and the people of Westphalia, too. But don't call them Saxons, as they think you'll take them for Saxons from Saxony...

[Plynkes]

Thanks ever so much, Poliorketes. That really makes it clear. As I know my boys are from the 7th Company, 2nd Batt. I can now get it exactly right down to a tee. Or choose to disregard that entirely and just use the scheme I think looks nicest. 


Black and red are also listed as the colours for a Württemberg officer's shoulder board braid, so I think we've got the whole Red-and-Black = Württemberg thing sewn up. I just need to see if I can find a picture of an NCO's knot to see just how exactly the state colours went together on the thing. Not sure I've quite grasped that part.


Thanks again. Top job.

[Westfalia Chris]

To make things more complicated - the people of Baden are Swabians, too, but don't ever call them so. Or only at your own risk. Same goes for Swiss. On the other hand the Austrians are Bavarians, but again, don't remind them of this. A yes, the german Saxons aren't really Saxons but Thuringians, while the people of Sachsen-Anhalt and Lower Saxony are true Saxons, and the people of Westphalia, too. But don't call them Saxons, as they think you'll take them for Saxons from Saxony...

Well, you know how the saying goes...

"Der Schwabe bricht sich´s Wadenbein, trinkt er zu viel vom Badenwein..."

[WillieB]

This will be a bit too basic but it might give you an idea.

Imagine the troddel ( bayonet knot) has four parts. The lower part (fringes) are always white.
So from the top you have a small knot, a stem and a crown just above the fringes.
Got it?


1st battalion  stems are all white

1st company all three parts are white
2nd company has red knot and crown
3rd company has yellow knot and crown
4th company has blue knot and crown

2nd battalion stems are all red

5th company has a red stem all other parts are white
6th company has a red stem red knot and red crown
7th company has a red stem yellow knot and yellow crown
8th company has a red stem blue knot and blue crown

3rd battalion stems are all yellow

9th company has a yellow stem knot and crown are white
10th company has a yellow stem knot and crown are red
11th company has a yellow stem knot and crown are also yellow
12th company has a yellow stem knot and crown are blue

4th battalion if it existed had blue stems

13th company has a blue stem all other parts are white
14th company has a blue stem with red knot and crown
15th company has a blue stem yellow knot and crown
16th company has all three parts in blue

17th company (MG company I believe) has a green stem with white knot and crown.

Jager companies had all green troddel.

The blue is quite light.

Hope this helps a bit- or it might confuse you even more

[Plynkes]

Thanks, WillieB, that's basically what Poliorketes' link said but it said it with pretty colours. It did however give up when it got to the 13th company. A superstitious website, perhaps?

Cheers.

[archangel1]

@Pete - don't call Wurttembergers Bavarians. You might as well call Welsh Scots. Wurttembergers are Swabians. A third of modern Bavaria consists of historical Swabia, but that makes no difference. Strathclyde is scottish nowadays, too, but that doesn't make you call a Welsh a Scot.

To make things more complicated - the people of Baden are Swabians, too, but don't ever call them so. Or only at your own risk. Same goes for Swiss. On the other hand the Austrians are Bavarians, but again, don't remind them of this. A yes, the german Saxons aren't really Saxons but Thuringians, while the people of Sachsen-Anhalt and Lower Saxony are true Saxons, and the people of Westphalia, too. But don't call them Saxons, as they think you'll take them for Saxons from Saxony...

...and a partridge in a pear tree! 

[PeteMurray]

@Pete - don't call Wurttembergers Bavarians. You might as well call Welsh Scots. Wurttembergers are Swabians. A third of modern Bavaria consists of historical Swabia, but that makes no difference. Strathclyde is scottish nowadays, too, but that doesn't make you call a Welsh a Scot.

To make things more complicated - the people of Baden are Swabians, too, but don't ever call them so. Or only at your own risk. Same goes for Swiss. On the other hand the Austrians are Bavarians, but again, don't remind them of this. A yes, the german Saxons aren't really Saxons but Thuringians, while the people of Sachsen-Anhalt and Lower Saxony are true Saxons, and the people of Westphalia, too. But don't call them Saxons, as they think you'll take them for Saxons from Saxony...

Oh, I knew Bavarians weren't Wurttembergers! I can only ever remember Bavarian uniform details: lightblue and raupenhelms! This is a bit like the saying: When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

As far as the rest of your explanation goes, I got a little bit lost in the Teutoburger Wald. 

[Poliorketes]

As far as the rest of your explanation goes, I got a little bit lost in the Teutoburger Wald. 

Don't worry, it isn't that large. The Teutoburger Wald, that is. And it's just 800m east of my bureau. So just go west and I'll pick you up for a barbecue with Bratwurst and Krautsalat. 

[PeteMurray]

I accept your offer!

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a wood to get out of...

[Chris Dale]

It did however give up when it got to the 13th company. A superstitious website, perhaps?

No, not superstitious. A standard peacetime infantry regt consisted of 12 coys in 3 btns... extra coys were asometimes added to wartime formations.

Cheers
Chris

[former user]

here is a sentence that helped memorize the sequence of colour
Wir = weiß
rauchen = rot
gerne = gelb
billige = blaue
gute = grün
Brasil = braun

translated to: we like to smoke good, cheap brasilian cigars