Dune: the awful movie (but great novels!)

[grant]

Dune was on TV tonight. What a wretched movie! Ironically, I had just started re-reading the books.

Has anyone done anything in 6mm to wargame Dune? Scale wise, I think 6mm would capture those epic scale battles of the Fremen and the Harkonnens, etc.

Thoughts?

[joroas]

The movie was good and the TV series was okay, what I found at a car boot sale last week, but haven't watched yet, is Dune Apocalypse, a rehash of the TV series Children of Dune....

http://www.sci-fi-online.com/00_revs/r2013/dvd/13-02-18_dune-apocalypse.html

[Major_Gilbear]

As you may guess, I love Dune. 

And yes, I've thought about it in 6mm far too many times to count!

The truth is, as much as doing Dune in 6mm would look very grand and computer gamey, I actually think skirmish level at 15 or 28mm is probably better/more accurate.

One of the reasons for this is that the combat was based more on the individuals participating than on just what guns they had, and whilst this could be explored in a really interesting way in a skirmish game, I don't think it would translate well enough into 6mm big battles.

That said, features like sand worms, artillery, aircraft, and so on would be better simulated in 6mm.

My personal ideal would a combat system which uses the same mechanics for 6mm and 28mm, but which adjusts to the scale played by adding/removing rules. So for example, adding a more detailed close combat system at skirmish level, along with rules for things like sentries, but at 6mm scale you lose that in favour of more detail for things like morale and leadership, strafing runs, artillery barrages, unit movement via ornithopters, etc. Not sure how workable that would be though.

[Connectamabob]

It is a bad movie by any academic measure, and it's rather wonky as an adaptation, but I really love the visuals, and the cast is 2/3 spot on.

TV series did better with the story in a very strict sense, but so much of the general executon was awkward to "meh". IMO the stuff it does do well doesn't overlap much with the stuff that the movie does well, so it's easy to frankenstien the two together mentally.

The Children of Dune series did the best all around job of the three in capturing the books IMO, even though it kinda goes to bits in places.  

As far as gaming goes, it depends on the engagement, but generally, yeah, 6mm seems like a good idea. The battles in the book need scope to represent right the table. Not just in the armies, but in the terrain.

Plus I'm now imaging sock beanbag worms, so there's that.

*EDIT* Major_Gilbear posted while I was typing. I like his multi-scale mechanics idea, and agree that 28mm skirmish rules would actually be more accurate to the flavor of combat in the books, despite the overarching scale/scope.

[Giger]

Not 6mm by a long shot but not-Dune in a sligthly smaller 20mm scale:

http://mjfigures.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=148_114_79&zenid=d356eec4f3e95ac9ae185dfa11cc9a25

[The_Beast]

Must say this discussion has re-affirmed my love/hate relationship with all the versions seen so far. Have to check out Apocalypse if I can.

Are the 28mm not-Dune (Mr. May? ...?) available? I was planning on getting some, but it seemed a temporary thing.

As an aside, and sorry for thread-jack, but I'm fairly certain Herbert did the prologue (animatic?) for the TV version when it was on TV, but I've not seen his pre-Dune explanation in any media I've had, and I've had several. Clues?

Doug

[Doomsdave]

I love all the movies and all the books.  Even the dreaded prequels.  I am stupid over Dune.  That is all. 

[Rob_Jedi]

Have you seen Jodorowsky’s Dune, it's a doco about the movie that never got made, all the preproduction art was done, storyboards, costumes designed, cast selected and the money fell through. Well worth watching, it would have been an interesting adaption. Also it seems we can thank it for putting together the people that went on to make Alien.

[Cherno]

I liked the movie (the original version, the David Lynch cut is a little bit too... lynchy for my tastes )

It had some great designs, namely the Harkonnens and the stillsuits, sandworms and harvesters, and some not-so-great (the Ornithopters looked horrible!).

[sundayhero]

Thanks for the 20mm link ! I didn't know this range.

THese last months with modern warfare I started to interest myself on this scale, and I'm currently going intot WW2. Playing and modelling 20mm scifi would be great, especially with a Dune thematic.

I almost finished the whole story, from prequels (I like them too) to end (I still have to read the 2 final books from Herbert's son, after ChapterHouse:Dune volume), and it's probably the best space opera I ever readed (even if I'm not a big fan of "ChapterHouse:dune").

[Elbows]

Growing up, as I did, in a decently geeky environment I remember everyone speaking of Dune and praising it etc.  I finally tried to watch the movie a few years ago and absolutely could not stand it.  Are the books actually worth the read?

How many are there, and which ones should I avoid (I can only assume there have been knock offs and ill-fated sequels?)

[Major_Gilbear]

Are the books actually worth the read?

Definitely, yes!

The original six books are:

- Dune (1965 )
- Dune Messiah (1969)
- Children of Dune (1976)
- God Emperor of Dune (1981)
- Heretics of Dune (1984)
- Chapterhouse: Dune (1985)

The first, Dune, really is my favourite. I've read it a good few times! The rest are good, but without reading them all in order are very hard to understand. Generally, they are all well written and clever, but Frank Herbert's style (particularly in the Dune series) can be a bit dense to read sometimes. I acknowledge this, though successive readings of the novels make this much easier - and even then I still manage to find new details and imagery in the series each time I read them.

The rest of the books are not Frank's work, and I'm sorry to say that his son is nowhere near as talented as his father - neither in continuity, or scope, or depth (or, you know, writing). I'd avoid them all, and just pick up tid-bits from the Wiki if you're bothered enough to want to know what they contain.

Should you care enough to want to try the computer games, Dune 2 is the granddaddy of the "modern RTS" game genre, and a direct predecessor of the Command & Conquer series. This was later followed by Dune 2000 (which was okay), and finally by Emperor: Battle for Dune (which I actually rather liked and played a lot of).

The games are not especially canonical (indeed, a third House -Ordos- is totally invented for the games), but they do seem to "understand" the conflicts based on the planet Dune and it's precious Spice Melange rather better than the films and modern novel sequels seem to.

[Wachaza]

Dune the book is superb. Well written, with ideal kernels for gaming you can see traveller and 40k were heavily influenced by it.

Sequels suffer from "contractual obligation" and cash cow milking. The further away you get from Dune the worse the sequels become.

Dune the movie I enjoyed as a visualisation of the novel and as a B movie entertainment. Sting's "acting" is worth the DVD price alone.

For gaming small unit combat RPG and skirmish would be the way to go for most of the battles.

The old Avalon Hill boardgame is a good simulation of the novel and the political intrigues. One I regret selling.

[FramFramson]

I'm with Gilbear. I'm solidy a fan of all the Frank Herbert books and while the first is clearly his best, the others are still very good and enjoyable. The problem comes in comparing them to Dune (where they suffer a bit), rather than to say your average sci-fi books (which they still stand far above). His son's books are tragic rubbish. I think the prequel books were at least tolerable, but the Butlerian Jihad series was just rot that grew worse and worse. Which is a damned shame, because I really would have loved to see Frank Herbert's own vision for ending his orginal series.

I've posted it on these boards before, but I'll repeat myself. Few, if any, science fiction writers could communicate the vast scope of time and distance the way Frank Herbert could. He manages an almost-perfect balance between the familiar and the wholly alien.

[Uncle Mike]

Being a huge fan of the book...well, the first three or four anyway...I've often thought about playing it on the tabletop. If 6mil is your thing I would recommend using Epic. Possibly a Chaos Marine list could be re-tooled to be a suitable Fremen with sandworms sort of thing.
I notice that you are in Calgary. If you have world enough and time you could pop by The Sentry Box on Sunday, I'll be there in my official capacity teaching painting demos. We have a few guys playing Epic on a semi-regular schedule and I'd be happy to jaw with you about it.
Now I want to build a Harkonen force...although I'd have to base it on the movie. While it was hideously incorrect I felt they did a great job on House H.