Perry WotR light horse pics.

[Nord]

Interested in getting these for my LR Wars of the Roses retinue - no surprises there. Any suggestions on how best to build them? Use the lances, the crossbows, the bows, etc? I'm not historically anal about these things, I will most likely choose what looks best to be honest. And given the conversation to date I think I can claim accuracy whatever I go with. But I am interested in being fairly accurate, so which way to go - based on adding to my 24 point retinue? I would be surprised if the crossbows could be included, never heard of them being used in that conflict, though as I say I am no expert.

[Monty]

Really I don't want to overwork the discussion about mounted archery here but let me share my personal experience with this matter:
Until my back became bad I practised longbow archery for a couple of years. Most of the time either target shooting on 3D hunter parkours or cloud shooting. From time to time we had rather funny events and tried kind of special exercises. Once we tried to shoot from a wooden horse and my personal summary is: Unsuitable as tactical option.
Of course it is possible to hold the extracted bow near the horse and loose the string but literally permanently something hinders you to move freely. Over the horse's neck you cannot move the bow sideways, you need both hands to perform shooting and you need to be an excellent rider to control the horse with your legs only.

Thus I presume that mounted archery is no real tactical option. Maybe (sic !) in skirmish games for a very limited number of heroic models it might be a special feature.

Probably it's easy to operate a crossbow while mounted in case it's gripping mechanism is appropriate...

Just my two pence...

Cheers
Stefan

[Captain Blood]

There are lots of famous (alleged) horse archers in history I know, from Scythians to Samurai. I suppose the question here is whether a sodding great yew longbow is really a practical weapon to shoot successfully from horseback. Obviously it can be done with smaller, lighter composite bows... But a 6ft longbow stave with a 50lb draw weight? With the gee-gee underneath you moving around all the time? Seems unlikely, although that's not to say it was never done, and I will certainly be making a figure firing his longbow from horseback - just because I can

[Atheling]

There are lots of famous (alleged) horse archers in history I know, from Scythians to Samurai. I suppose the question here is whether a sodding great yew longbow is really a practical weapon to shoot successfully from horseback. Obviously it can be done with smaller, lighter composite bows... But a 6ft longbow stave with a 50lb draw weight? With the gee-gee underneath you moving around all the time? Seems unlikely, although that's not to say it was never done, and I will certainly be making a figure firing his longbow from horseback - just because I can

50lb minimum I would declare!

The first time I tried to draw a bow it was a 50lb bow as recommended by the bowyer and I found it quite easy to draw to the ear. I'm 5'7 max.

I'm sticking to my guns and staying with the theory that the Warbow would sometimes have been used from horseback. Watch the Mike Loades video that I've included in an earlier post Richard. does he look as though he's struggling?

Ao-one is suggesting that English Longbowmen were mounted archers as in the famous warriors of the Steppes, but they were versatile troops, especially on raids etc.

[Patrice]

Interesting points.  

In fact it depends on what we are talking about: the difference between "mounted foot" and true cavalry.

To shoot effectively from horseback you need: guys who are 1) good at shooting and 2) good to ride a horse; but (perhaps the most important and most difficult to prepare) you also need 3) war horses trained to accept all the noise and fury of battle and that will not panick when you'll be shooting. Without such horses, you are "mounted foot" whatever you can do.

If it was of any tactical interest, at least some units of such troops would have been raised, trained, and used in battle. It was not the case. This is not to say that some guys may never have shot from horseback in some special situations.

- Back to these wonderful miniatures: it's very interesting that they include (true) cavalry without complete armour but charging with couched lances, which indeed developped in this period, probably from poor lesser nobility unable to buy expensive armour (a difference with the "hobilars" of the early HYW who were "mounted foot" yeomen IMO). That's probably what French texts call "courrours" or "coureurs", scouts able to fight with lances on horseback, who clashed with their enemy counterparts before big battles.

[Monty]

50lb minimum I would declare!

The first time I tried to draw a bow it was a 50lb bow as recommended by the bowyer and I found it quite easy to draw to the ear. I'm 5'7 max.

Agreed, a 50lb longbow is manageable but medieval longbows of the 14th and 15th century had much more than this. A couple of years ago historians found well-preserved longbows in the wreck of "Mary Rose" which sank 1545 north of the Isle of Wight. They examined the bows and estimated their draw weights somewhere between 150lbs and 160lbs. Archers practised weekly to be able to handle this weapon and to use it accurately.
Honestly I doubt that Mike Loads employed such a beast of war.

Concerning the other points I second Patrice. English archers were expert bowmen but until now I found no hint that they might have been expert horsemen as well. So to my mind mounted archers were a very versatile kind of warriors. Probably priceless as scouts or other roles of light cavalry. But mounted archery... Most unlikely to my mind. Except of very, very rare occasions for particular soldiers...

[steders]

Okay



I'm just giving mine spears

[Atheling]

Agreed, a 50lb longbow is manageable but medieval longbows of the 14th and 15th century had much more than this. A couple of years ago historians found well-preserved longbows in the wreck of "Mary Rose" which sank 1545 north of the Isle of Wight. They examined the bows and estimated their draw weights somewhere between 150lbs and 160lbs. Archers practised weekly to be able to handle this weapon and to use it accurately.
Honestly I doubt that Mike Loads employed such a beast of war.

That is exactly my point. My first attempt at loosing a longbow was a 50lb bow and it was not difficult. I merely pointed it out as Captain Blood seemed to be intimating that a bow of a 50lb draw weight was 'normal' in the Late Medieval period. This is not the case as you have pointed out.

Concerning the other points I second Patrice. English archers were expert bowmen but until now I found no hint that they might have been expert horsemen as well. So to my mind mounted archers were a very versatile kind of warriors. Probably priceless as scouts or other roles of light cavalry. But mounted archery... Most unlikely to my mind. Except of very, very rare occasions for particular soldiers...

Oh boy.... Just to reiterate, I at least am not referring to Expert horsemen nor mounted archers as in the mould of the Steppe Nomad.

I think I'll bow out..... please watch the Mike Loades footage I provided in my post above and decide for yourself 

Darrell.

[Captain Blood]

Alright, alright, alright! And... relax.

Can we leave it there? Please?
For as the wise Arlequin always points out, the truth is we just don't know any of this for sure. So getting into a long argument about it is a bit pointless, and the kind of thing they enjoy on certain other forums, but we've tried to avoid here on LAF 

Let's just celebrate the arrival of another beautiful Perry baby
May it bring us many hours of happiness and amusement - and not too much argument.

Okay
I'm just giving mine spears

Brilliant.
Certainly sounds the safest option...

[NurgleHH]

Seems unlikely, although that's not to say it was never done, and I will certainly be making a figure firing his longbow from horseback - just because I can

Ok, Captain, I think you are a rebel-boy. And I know you will game with this miniature! Very, very rebellious, I think.

[Monty]

Sorry, Darrell, I really didn't want to offent you or to annoy you. I just doubt that Mr Loads used a warbow with more than 100lbs... Anyway I got your point but Richard is right:

Let's just celebrate the arrival of another beautiful Perry baby
May it bring us many hours of happiness and amusement - and not too much argument.

Hear! Hear!
Aye, Captain. 

[Arlequín]

English archers were expert bowmen but until now I found no hint that they might have been expert horsemen as well.

Not sure about expert archers... but they were at least adequate or they wouldn't draw an archer's pay. As for horsemen, don't forget we are in an age where a horseman owned his mount ergo he was a 'rider', unless of course he was in a retinue and had one provided, but even then if you had a number of archers to choose from you'd surely give the horses to the men who could ride them?

The (Howard) Duke of Norfolk bought one of his archers a boar spear along with an expensive bow, so the inference is that he could hunt boar on horseback and warranted a bow that cost more than the one Norfolk bought for himself. Of course you can make of that what you will and of course it is only one example, but for me he was an adequate enough horseman to hunt on horseback and a fine archer... whether the two complemented the other in action is of course unknown.

Let's just celebrate the arrival of another beautiful Perry baby

Indeed, I got caught up in the discussion (nothing new there  ) and forgot to mention how pleased I am with these, they've been a long time coming.

Obviously I'm looking forwards to seeing what yourself and others do with them and can of course finally buy the whole host of packs to mix and match myself... at some point I might get reunited with my paints etc too.
 

[Atheling]

Sorry, Darrell, I really didn't want to offent you or to annoy you. I just doubt that Mr Loads used a warbow with more than 100lbs... Anyway I got your point but Richard is right:Hear! Hear!
Aye, Captain. 

I'm not offended in the least. i agree with the Cap'n... we're not TMP!! Oops..... 

Back to the lovely mini's 

Darrell.

[painterman]

Back to the forthcoming minis...ahem.

I've posted some more pics of the painted examples on my blog, in case anyone wants more forensic examination.
They are excellent figures (and these were just the test sprues), with many useful parts for conversions etc.
Cheers
Simon.

http://je-lay-emprins.blogspot.co.uk/

[Cubs]

I think medieval mounted trebuchets were common as well.






... heheheh ...