Perry WotR light horse pics.

[Captain Blood]

I've posted some more pics of the painted examples on my blog, in case anyone wants more forensic examination.
They are excellent figures (and these were just the test sprues), with many useful parts for conversions etc.

Saw these in Hamburg at the weekend Simon. Very nice work. I'm looking forward to building from the test sprue Michael kindly gave me, and seeing what I can come up with 

[RedRowan]

I've posted some more pics of the painted examples on my blog, in case anyone wants more forensic examination.
They are excellent figures (and these were just the test sprues), with many useful parts for conversions etc.
Cheers
Simon.

http://je-lay-emprins.blogspot.co.uk/

Thanks for posting some more pics, nice to see some detail shots, great paint job too.

Steve

[doowopapocalypse]

Okay



I'm just giving mine spears

Any proof they used spears on horseback...?

[Mick_in_Switzerland]

Dear Simon
We'll done with the painting and the review.
Mick

[painterman]

Thanks for the kind words on the painting.

Back to the use of missile weapons on horseback (apologies to Richard the moderator!), but I find this image of great interest. Its by the Master A, and is Franco-Burgundian of circa 1475 and is suppose to be one of a limited number of images of contemporary troops. If we believe what we see, it shows a fighting unit of mounted troops, with lance armed front rank, supported by 2 ranks of mounted crossbows.
This suggests to me that both crossbows were used on horse (note on close inspection at least one man using a cranequin) and that weapon types were integrated. Schilling Chronicle images from the same period nearly always show one or two crossbowmen on horse supporting mounted men at arms, often firing at the opposition, by means of providing 'covering fire'.
I'm increasingly convinced that fighting contingents of 'mixed' weapons (ie bows and man arms) were very common in 14th and 15th century armies - its just problematic for us wargamers who have rules written which reflect units of a single weapon type.



Sorry if this protracts this thread even further on the point of mounted missile use.  
Cheers

[Arlequín]

These figures may look very familiar when you look at the new sprues. Note the shields AND the group to the right who are a mix of lance and crossbow armed men.



Similar mixed crossbow guys and 'lancers' on the move. Same source.

super magnified image here: http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk50/Dstaberg/Utrustning%20aka%20Equipment/Hausbuch_Wolfegg_51v_52r1_Heerzug_Ryttare2.jpg

[Patrice]

Ooops I'm sorry if I am too harsh when expressing my opinions, it's certainly not intended (blame my poor grasp of the subtelities of the language!) 

I'm increasingly convinced that fighting contingents of 'mixed' weapons (ie bows and man arms) were very common in 14th and 15th century armies

Yes, they rode to battle together: a man-at-arms followed by his servant lancer and a few bows/xbows. Then they separated before the battle, and the shooters fought on foot...

a manuscript in the Bibliotheque Nationale featuring longbowmen using their bows from horseback.

Yes the drawing shows that, but the text (of Froissart) in the same source about this battle at the Blanche-Taque / Blanquetaque ford crossing on the river Somme is not so clear. I had a look at it again, it seems to mean that the English longbowmen were shooting while their men-at-arms were crossing...
Anyway, if the longbowmen had horses they would obviously try to cross the river mounted, even if fighting with their swords on the other bank...

I'm just giving mine spears

Do I miss some joke here? 
But I don't mean that such nice minis should not be used.
I would suggest:
– If your rules allow to buy non-war-trained horses for a cheap budget, bring some of these mounted shooters on the game table at full speed with your cavalry scouts, and dismount them where you need them, faster than your foot bowmen could have arrived. "Mounted foot" can be very useful as fast infantry. Of course it needs that you have similar minis on foot.
– Or include one or two of them in command bases/units and tell other players that they will not shoot in the game but that they nicely represent personal followers of your commanders.

[tomrommel1]

hey Painterman nice blog!

[Mad Doc Morris]

The Twins wisely avoided to tackle this delicate topic by depicting all missile troops in travelling mode. Good call!

If shooting from horseback was common practice in the Medieval period, either generally or just with particular weapons, is yet to be researched. I only have, like said, a passing interest in crossbows (and, to a degree, handguns) and their use in the Holy Roman Empire of that time, anything beyond might be totally different. In these parts, though, shooting crossbows from the saddle was at least a recommended tactic: Philipp von Seldeneck, writing a "Kriegsbuch" (book of war) somewhen in the later 15th century, explains how to deploy mounted crossbowmen, who were to 'volley fire' at the enemy just before the accompanying body of knights would charge in. Here's an illustration from another book (by Philipp Mönch, c. 1496) probably showing that very approach and possibly some countermeasures:



Also, shooting while mounted was part of formal training as advertised by the likes of Hans Talhoffer (again, latter half of the 15th century):



Of course, there are a lot of limiting factors in the interpretation of such descriptions. Thus I wouldn't assume that every mounted crossbowman was able or even required to shoot from horseback. It's just a possibility, and therefore it could well be represented in wargaming as an option(!).

[Arlequín]

... probably showing that very approach and possibly some countermeasures:

I'm guessing roving musicians is not the countermeasure you meant. 

I've never seen that top picture before, so thanks for that. It's very interesting in a number of ways, not least the halberds being in the middle of the pike block and in some quantity, the total lack of skirmishers and the very deep 'German' formations of men at arms massed on only one flank. 

I doubt many wargamers would deploy their army in this fashion.

[Mad Doc Morris]

I'm guessing roving musicians is not the countermeasure you meant.  

Who knows, the Ottoman army as well as the Scots were quite successful with scary music. Now there's another discussion!

Re the illustration of the army in array: There's a number of books with this kind of depiction, all quite schematic. Some even include fantasy weaponry, obviously inspired by classical texts. So we really don't have a clue if these descriptions can be taken at face value for real world tactics. No coincidence that it shares a lot with reconstructions of the Late Roman military based exclusively on the fancy 'recommendations‘ of Vegetius.

[Captain Blood]

Suck it up...   





Detailed review of the new light cavalry frame, plus my builds from the test frame Michael Perry kindly gave me at the weekend...
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=40936.1455

[commissarmoody]

So pretty 

[Atheling]

Suck it up...   





Detailed review of the new light cavalry frame, plus my builds from the test frame Michael Perry kindly gave me at the weekend...
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=40936.1455

Lovely seamless work Richard!! Get him painted up pronto!!

Darrell.

[Monty]

Besides any historical background dicussion this conversion is really excellent.